Hmmm, I actually encounter this often…

Typically if I am leading the set, I just do my thing. I don’t try to adapt to others. It’s just too hard, since I’m also thinking about saying Hup and the next tune coming up, etc. And it’s my set, so I feel that it’s ok that I should go ahead and play it “my way”.

If I am “playing along”, I play “under” them in volume, and I defer to their version…I try to omit any of my notes that clash with theirs. If I know that tune really well, I might be able to do double stops, harmony or drones, but usually I just stick to melody because experimenting with that other stuff can throw people off… so #6 mostly, and #7 rarely.

And if the settings really clash, or they are doing something utterly unique and beautiful…Then #4! My flute friend’s “Toss the Feathers” was like that…I played along with her one time (mine was typical standard version) but I realized/heard what she was doing and I had to stop and listen…

yep how does everybody else handle?

I will check out "seconding"...I think that is cool, and maybe more done in OT than Celtic!

PS I think #1 and #2 will not win you musical friends...since it will tend to detract from overall sound of group...

Boy if I could play second it would be like Dan (there is a cassette full of tunes played by Brad and him) or Tricia Spencer.

Apple Blossoms

Goodbye my Little Darling

If #2 (sub section 2 )were so easy, like you I'd be very good at harmonizing fiddle tunes on the fly. But I'm not really. Playing for the dances with another fiddle who plays strictly melody, exactly the same over and over opened up my ability to work out harmonies without getting in the way of the melody, but that still requires the constant melody. Could probably record yourself playing the melody and then practice with that. At least you'd know what notes went where.

As a strictly amateur fiddler whose star turns have been few and far between, I always try to blend in and enrich what the alpha fiddlers and other band members are up to. It's probably due to the fact that, when I played electric guitar, my attempts to out-duel other lead guitarists always let to little more than earaches.

I mostly do seconding. But what I think of "seconding" is more as underlying accompaniment. I use these to accompany lead singing as well.

Of course one is just like most any rhythm section accompaniment; it's mostly about the rhythmic foundation and/or chord (though might include some other aspects common to accompaniment).

Another is a bit more like playing CH banjo... which outlines and reinforces the basic melodic contour, but simpler more bare bones, leaving the most details and nuances to the person playing lead. Might play that an octave lower. Like CH banjo, also might also weave in a bit of above also helping define rhythmic or sense of the chord movement.

I generally think of counter melodies or harmonies as different thing.

As far as how natural... probably depends on background. If from more from rhythm section accompaniment realm, maybe being in bands and working out arrangements, learning to listen and understand what different part do; it probably seems more natural to think in those terms... as opposed to just from melodic lead/solo background.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder
6. Adjust / abbreviate what you play to complement their version without copying them.

---

There are a few friends I play with and we are very tight, from the beginning, whether it's two fiddles or fiddle-banjo. While we are not playing note for note with each other, we are very much in sync. One of the friends said that we have the same "sense of the tune".

Also, I really enjoy playing with those that listen to others who are playing in the jam, especially with the person that started the tune. In that way we adjust to play in sync with each other.

Y'know, in a jam or band, i live in 2nd or tag mode most of the time. The fiddle's voice fits in a unique place in the music/tune/song. A fiddle's voice cuts threw, even at low volume. If the lead fiddler goes low, I might go high, but always at lower volume. Lots of double stops that follow the chord progression. Chord "swells" or rocking shuffle on the double-stop. I've improved in falling into the chord progression by not playing fiddle but playing everything else. Bass, guitar, banjer, pianer. More chordal instruments. What I've found is many OT tunes thud along on one or two chords. While C&W, or old pop tunes, like All of Me, Pennies From Heaven, Ain't Misbehavin, have real five dollar chords. But take heart, you only have to catch two notes of those chords. If you can't find the flatted third, find the fifth. Explore rootless chords. I still go by ear first. If it turns out it's an inversion, fine. If you keep your throttle low, it might not matter. And I most always keep my throttle low. Having a loud fiddle can really teach you how to play softly. It takes touch/technique. That's why we teach newbies not to play quietly, because it's harder.

I sometimes play with C, really good fiddler/violinist who also teaches…

he will start a tune and after he thinks I’ve got the melody covered, he’ll leave and start playing around…double stops, chording, harmony, such cool good stuff…
and at that point I give him an accusing look - as I start to tense up leading the melody by myself!

Playing with him is sometimes terrifying, LOL!

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I generally think of counter melodies or harmonies as different thing.

As far as how natural... probably depends on background. If from more from rhythm section accompaniment realm, maybe being in bands and working out arrangements, learning to listen and understand what different part do; it probably seems more natural to think in those terms... as opposed to just from melodic lead/solo background.

---

  ...yes

and yes...  I'm thinking something that is thought of more like continuous runs, lead-in fills, and backing fills that include chord voicings as much as possible. 

Doing that on the fly would not be a very easy thing to master. It almost demands that you "know" the melody line fairly well before you can pull that off.

Here's a quick and dirty St. Anne's Reel.
The levels are such that the proposed 2nd is much higher than it normally would be. (One can't rightly show buried objects without digging them up a bit) I don't know what it would serve, but I could also post the video in which this was made. The 1st is going through a looper with a bit of delay. Hence the bodran sound. The 2nd is straight to the mikes on a Samsung tablet. Of course I have to hear the 1st, to play with so it's really a mashup.

Can you tell I don't have nothin' to do? Pitiful ain't it.

Been out of the loop for awhile, and a bit confused as to what happened to the top half of this thread?
If this is a discussion of harmonizing, it's something you don't hear much in an Irish session but I sure enjoy trying it out where it's appropriate (emphasis on the 'trying' as Billy well knows! :-D )

yep the question was what to do when versions/settings of a tune don’t match -

we lost the options above #7 …
…but I think #1 was “Keep playing your version” and #2 was “Play louder”… (which I voted against :-). But I did vote for #6 (playing in a way that supports/complements).

Even at Irish sessions, you might find some notes colliding with other people’s, so you gotta figure out how to handle. One common thing that comes up is C-sharp vs C-natural*…I just defer to whoever started the tune…if they are C-sharpers, I will do that too!

* some complicated thing based on pipes that someone tried to explain once, but I dunno? In some tunes, the Cs are up for grabs…

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonD

Been out of the loop for awhile, and a bit confused as to what happened to the top half of this thread?
If this is a discussion of harmonizing, it's something you don't hear much in an Irish session but I sure enjoy trying it out where it's appropriate (emphasis on the 'trying' as Billy well knows! :-D )

---

...attempted to recreate the list . hope that fills in the blanks.

This is what I was attempting to do when I messed up the OP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

 

I offered a link to Dan Gellert playing second fiddle to Brad Leftwich as an example of someone who is master at seconding. I can't find any online material that has Dan expaining how he approached developing that skill. He would definitely be worth listening to. 

Would it be considered "traditional"? ...encouraged or discouraged by OT purists?

 

I think that kind of seconding was common in old fashioned Cajun fiddling. Here's a short video of Dennis McGee and Sady Courville doing it:
youtu.be/MGMlAdJAc2Q?feature=shared
And the 1972 album where a lot of us first heard them:
youtu.be/MzEGpFY4yag?feature=shared

That's a nice clip of Brad and Dan. I don't know about traditional, but I'd say its not very common. I recorded an album of Brad playing with Andy Williams in the Plank Road String Band (also on YouTube), and they played mostly in unison (more or less).
BTW, Dan is a member here, and has posted recently. Maybe you could ask him if he'd like to share some tips.

As far as "traditional," I was going to say there aren't too many recordings of this technique, until I remembered these two, from the very dawn of recorded traditional fiddling:
youtu.be/gBZvoS3sCfA?feature=shared
youtu.be/GlZyZaV3o5o?feature=shared
These were released with "Sallie Goodin" and "Ragtime Annie" on the other side, played solo by Eck Robertson.

Thank you Doug. You are such a valuable part of FHO. Quick with insights and meaningful information. (..and a great talent) Yes, I think that any "traditional " aspect of seconding would probably only get a footnote because it just was rare, perhaps a novelty. Privately, it might be encouraged when the potential is recognized and it seems to "fit" with what the fiddlers are playing. Publicly speaking though - I think it would be one of those things where - when it is done well, it is received with great enthusiasm; and frowned on when it's not. (stating the obvious)

I would love to hear what Dan Gellert would have to say. I would love to know the best approach learning the skill - from someone who "knows".

Hey. Thank you, Tony! I ought to check FHO more often.

I started playing second by sawing the chord changes on the bass strings, based on Cajun style, and a few other sources.. I'm remembering some recordings of John Summers accompanied by a fiddler whose name I forget. I think Frank George also played second to Summers on the recordings they did together.

Anyway, whatever I can do as far as seconding or harmony grows directly out of that. From 2-note partial chords I got to working in various rhythmic ways of arpeggiating around the notes in each chord, often winding up doing an outline of guitar bass-chord backup (or the bass side of an accordion). Using the same bass runs and/or passing riffs I'd use on a guitar or banjo added another bagful of harmonic possibilities.

Making a 2nd part for a particular tune, I'm listening for where the phrasing and the melody can handle my throwing in a big chord, or a beat or two of detailed harmony. I choose one, and figure out what I want to do with just that one riff, sometimes by slowing it way down and singing the lead and playing along. On a lot of tunes, one or two specific riffs or notes is enough, and the rest of the time I'm keeping time noodling on the chord notes, trying not to crowd the lead too much, especially if I'm just playing a straight duet with another fiddle (no other accompaniment).

Hope that makes some sense.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

Hey. Thank you, Tony! I ought to check FHO more often.

I started playing second by sawing the chord changes on the bass strings, based on Cajun style, and a few other sources.. I'm remembering some recordings of John Summers accompanied by a fiddler whose name I forget. I think Frank George also played second to Summers on the recordings they did together.

Anyway, whatever I can do as far as seconding or harmony grows directly out of that. From 2-note partial chords I got to working in various rhythmic ways of arpeggiating around the notes in each chord, often winding up doing an outline of guitar bass-chord backup (or the bass side of an accordion). Using the same bass runs and/or passing riffs I'd use on a guitar or banjo added another bagful of harmonic possibilities.

Making a 2nd part for a particular tune, I'm listening for where the phrasing and the melody can handle my throwing in a big chord, or a beat or two of detailed harmony. I choose one, and figure out what I want to do with just that one riff, sometimes by slowing it way down and singing the lead and playing along. On a lot of tunes, one or two specific riffs or notes is enough, and the rest of the time I'm keeping time noodling on the chord notes, trying not to crowd the lead too much, especially if I'm just playing a straight duet with another fiddle (no other accompaniment).

Hope that makes some sense.

---

I realize that playing second fiddle "on the fly" with tunes that might not be in my repertoire is unrealistic. It will always be more of a collaborative effort if I expect to do it well. 

I had planned to approach this by becoming  familiar enough with the melody to know where the harmonies would be and what fills and lead-ins I might play on guitar. But as much sense as that makes to me - arranging that as a practice routine is still pretty fuzzy.  I also thought about making my first attempts on mandolin, but that may only complicate things for me. 

One question- if you don't mind. It sounds like what you are doing is not really a "counter melody", in that could stand alone apart from the tune's main melody. Would it be better for me to think of it as a "complimentary backup accompaniment"?  That sounds more like improvisation and less composition. Less intimidating (lol).

What you shared is motivating and inspiring,  But I going to need more time thinking about what you've shared  - let it sink in some more. Starting with John Summers.

Thank you, Dan - very much. It's kind of you to take the time to offer some hints and pointing me in the right direction. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

One question- if you don't mind. It sounds like what you are doing is not really a "counter melody", in that could stand alone apart from the tune's main melody. Would it be better for me to think of it as a "complimentary backup accompaniment"?  That sounds more like improvisation and less composition. Less intimidating (lol).

---

And after reading this again, I realize how it might have sounded. I didn't mean to imply that you (Dan) are not really playing a "counter melody", or worse yet - that you don't know how. (  )

I was asking about the general perception of what could be understood from the meaning of just the terms "counter melody" -  without hearing an example.  It might leave someone with the idea that it is a totally separate melody being played over the top of the main melody in a tune. It could be played separately and enjoyed as a tune in and of itself - possibly without any recognizable association with the main tune. And perhaps sometimes that is what it is...

yea, just silly thoughts. 

Phew, counter-melody is tough! I don't think many people can come up with those on the fly...maybe jazz or BG types who are used to improvising a lot?

I could eventually come up with one... if I played the main melody like 100 times and practiced/rehearsed the counter-melody. But not on the spot!

Dan's approach is really useful to hear! Thank you.

I never think of playing "counter melody", but if it's working like I want it to, what happens winds up fitting that description, at least sometimes. It's way more improvisation than composition.

Working things out on a mandolin makes excellent sense. I was once at a fiddle camp where Paul Anastasio was teaching. Now, there is somebody who digs the violin's harmonic possibilities very deeply indeed! When he was not teaching or playing fiddle, he nearly always had a UKULELE in his hands... a soprano, tuned (with a special string set) like a mandolin. I never saw him perform on that uke; it was a practice aid and sort of scratch pad for working out arrangements. Sure seemed to work for him!

When a fiddler says "harmony", they're usually referring to something like an alto part closely following the melody in the soprano range, like a vocal duet. Backup guitar is just as much harmony, though-- the only difference is in the level of detail. Traditional old-time and bluegrass seldom play a chord for less than two beats, implying more complex harmonies with bass runs, or by simply making a change either behind or ahead of what would be most conventionally consonant with the lead. A swing guitarist will usually make a real clear change every beat. A duet-style/"twin fiddle" part is what happens when you're thinking accompaniment at the level of quarter-beats, and trying to stay fairly close to the pitch of the melody.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

was asking about the general perception of what could be understood from the meaning of just the terms "counter melody" -  without hearing an example.

---

How about what Earl's doing here on the banjo?   It's not what you'd usually call "melodic", but I think it would qualify as "contrapuntal", though I suspect he would have said he was just playing the rhythm of the phrasing,using the basic changes, adding an occasional passing chord or or harmonic riff for variety.

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYXFLcrQp4&list=PLIE-F7iWNu_CsDsGSJv2wMTIRWocEAl1l

When two violins are played together, there are different approaches that can be taken to their concerted use.

One is to have one play the melodic line while the other plays an accompaniment that fills out the voicing without taking the focus. In this way of playing, the second violin often plays chords or ornaments to embellish the melodic line.

Another is to have the two violins follow a more contrapuntal approach, where two distinct voices work with a melodic line and build it. If the piece is a song, the two parts may well trade off phrases from the original line as they move around it. In fiddling, it’s more common to see a second fiddle used for playing a line of parallel intervals, typically thirds if it’s Texas style, and fifths and octaves if it’s something else. While harmony is eschewed by many Old Time jams, octaves are considered acceptable because while pitch is different, the sound is monophonic.