Dan posted mostly what I was going to post.

I was going to suggest add option #8 - Chordal/rhythm accompaniment.  (different than#7)

I also don't think of it as melodic in nature. It's main role, focus is providing an underlying accompaniment, somewhat like basic rhythm instrument (i.e. guitar, or uke) does; role providing a sense of chord/progression, and/or rhythmic texture or foundation. Typically incorporates both, but as far as options of what to do, might think of separate extremes. One side focus is simply highlighting chord(s), using more long held sustained; maybe even drone like (some tunes you could just drone a single note or dyad DS over whole tune). The other side using more short or percussive in nature focused on highlighting more rhythmic role (could just do chopping).

Also mentioned

I'm thinking something that is thought of more like continuous runs, lead-in fills, and backing fills

I think of those as different thing, and serves different role. That is a possible role in some music, but not sure how applicable for OP and most traditional fiddle tunes. Fills generally there is not the extra space to put fills in independently from melody. Fiddle tune more often take up that space, or role is already provided as lead melody fills that... so might be a bit distracting, especially for the person trying to lead the tune.  Continuous runs could also be very distracting.

If I was even able to :

8. Play the tune Liberty as loud and obnoxious as I could.

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

I think that kind of seconding was common in old fashioned Cajun fiddling. Here's a short video of Dennis McGee and Sady Courville doing it:
youtu.be/MGMlAdJAc2Q?feature=shared
 

Are my eyes deceiving me?  It sure looks like he is playing with the bow upside down.  Doesn't sound like it - but it sure does look like it. HA. ...first time.

Denis' bow was haired so loosely that he couldn't tighten it with the screw. He kept tension on the hair with the back of his thumb! Looked screwy as hell, but it sure worked for him.
I think baroque-era (and earlier) violinists used a similar technique, allowing them to adjust the hair tension while playing. Made it possible to switch back and forth between single-note passages and true triple stops.

Watching that traditional cajun video... the first thing that stands out to me is the bowing... It reminds me of the pattern bowing in the modern old time scene they teach in the northeastern music schools as "old time". I think in bowing discussions here it has been said that cajun music influenced that northeastern style (or is it the French influence?)

I think in the central Appalachians fiddlers from PA down into the gut of WVa, fiddlers were/are a more solitary and individualist lot. There's not a set tradition or a lot of evidence for 'seconding'...  It is/was done though. I used to get into jams with fiddlers and they'd do various parts sometimes... Golden Slippers comes to mind.  

When I am in a jam, I focus on the whole sound of the room, responding to that more than focusing on what one fiddler does... 

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

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Wow! Your situation is even worse than mine these days!

i know, its just terrible...

When playing fiddle with another fiddler, and you discover that your playing a different version of a tune that what the other fiddler is playing, what do you do?


I don't worry about it too much. There is just one fiddler I play with regularly, and we learn tunes from the same source. But occasionally we'll find we've interpreted something differently, and sometimes we will intentionally choose different paths. Most of the time it's not a problem unless it's about chords (what we're telling other players to play). Sometimes we'll stop and work something out. Usually we'll agree that a variation is no problem. I sometimes make an effort to play harmony or counter melodies because my mind goes that way. He usually doesn't do that. I don't see a problem of playing a piece a little differently in less it's structural, chords or timing.

If I am new to a group, however, I will definitely defer to the version being played by doing whatever it takes and  playing quieter.

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

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Wait a minute. I think that sounded pretty good! But I don't understand the finer points of that type of music.  It always amazes me. Don't itm, cape Breton, Scott's trad fiddlers, don't they get tired? It sort of exhausts me to listen. 

Thanks Steve

 It exhausts me trying to play it... But when it comes together it's an amazing thing. It just takes a lot of effort to get there. When it happens even the wee twiddles are in time, and complement each other.

I continue to be both amazed and confounded by the rigidity that is so much a part of playing OT. I can't help but wonder if the rigidity somehow derives from the violin's vitally important place in European classical music where, at least largely, following a leader and strict adherence to the written page is "the way it's done." To be sure, the music can sound wonderful if everybody in the ensemble does their best to adhere to specific directions, but it bugs this longtime rock-and-roller, nonetheless.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I continue to be both amazed and confounded by the rigidity that is so much a part of playing OT. I can't help but wonder if the rigidity somehow derives from the violin's vitally important place in European classical music where, at least largely, following a leader and strict adherence to the written page is "the way it's done." To be sure, the music can sound wonderful if everybody in the ensemble does their best to adhere to specific directions, but it bugs this longtime rock-and-roller, nonetheless.

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i find O/T to be one of the "looser" genre's...... Maybe it's just your introduction to it that was strict or rigid?

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

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yes - that makes sense, but - that isn't really the focus of the OP. 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?

...I think there have been a number of good suggestions.

I have downloaded a few mp3 from BHO for tunes that I wanted to hear just the banjo part - for learning and practicing. Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

---

yes - that makes sense, but - that isn't really the focus of the OP. 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?

...I think there have been a number of good suggestions.

I have downloaded a few mp3 from BHO for tunes that I wanted to hear just the banjo part - for learning and practicing. Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

---

"It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?"

1: Know the tune and context intimately.

2: Find  how you can add to the tune using your personal knowledge of music theory.

3: Play below the  melody, unless your music theory knowledge allows yo to do otherwise.

4: Have the technical ability to execute your accompaniment, (probably this should be #1)

if you can do all of this....Edit: (on the fly), "you are a better man than i"....

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

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For many tunes the general shape of the melody and the chord progression (even without chords most tunes can be heard in relation to chord intervals) is not hard to get. Coming up with a counter melody or harmony can be easier than learning the actual tune note for note. At least some people have the knack for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

---

For many tunes the general shape of the melody and the chord progression (even without chords most tunes can be heard in relation to chord intervals) is not hard to get. Coming up with a counter melody or harmony can be easier than learning the actual tune note for note. At least some people have the knack for it.

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I use a couple of things for either twinning with other fiddles or just plain old back up. 1st, play the double stops for the chord structure with a complimentary bowing pattern. 2nd try to pick out the important notes that define the melody and strive for a 3rd above those notes, with complimentary runs up to and back down or onto the next highlighted note. I have knack for doing that, even on 1st time thru like in jam settings. 3rd one is to play a really high single note (root note or a 5th above works well here) within the chord structure, lightly and maybe use a triplet around that note. Lightly and sweetly. If you have a bag of tricks around each of these, that you can dip into at will, you'll have a leg up when twinning or doing back up.

Last week at a BG am there were 3 very decent fiddlers (I'm including me for the purposes of this discussion). We did a few common fiddle tunes together. 1st time round, we agreed to kind of dumb down melodies and all played together, then each took a time around with all their personal bells and whistles whilst the other 2 used one of the techniques above to back them up. Judging by audience reaction, it was quite successful! I could do that all night - the sound of triple fiddles puts me into an immediate alpha state!

So someone can take a quote from somebody else and attribute it to me?
How is that possible?
And why would somebody want to do that?
Jeez 

I've found I can invent pretty decent solo breaks on the fly by syncopating the tune a little bit, and introducing a few slides into the melody. I might have mentioned this before, but you can get mileage if you just soulfully repeat the tune's head riff, each time altering the rhythm a tad.

If you know your guitar chords, Treat the modes as extended chords, and waffle around with them....

Where you going to end up after waffling around with C# locrian?....Erm.... D Ionian or D Major.

So C# locrian or A Mixolydian will lead you to a D Ionian, same as a C#m(b5) or A7 chord will lead you to D major (D Ionian)... Etc....

It's like getting on the train to D Majorsville

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

So someone can take a quote from somebody else and attribute it to me?
How is that possible?
And why would somebody want to do that?
Jeez 

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So sorry! I used to a line in your post without scrolling back to its origin and true author.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

---

For many tunes the general shape of the melody and the chord progression (even without chords most tunes can be heard in relation to chord intervals) is not hard to get. Coming up with a counter melody or harmony can be easier than learning the actual tune note for note. At least some people have the knack for it.

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Yeap.  Right after I said this:

But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

I said this - in the next sentence:

"It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it." 

Or: "..it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational - an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune"

So, yeap, I would agree.  

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

---

yes - that makes sense, but - that isn't really the focus of the OP. 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?

...I think there have been a number of good suggestions.

I have downloaded a few mp3 from BHO for tunes that I wanted to hear just the banjo part - for learning and practicing. Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

---

"It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?"

1: Know the tune and context intimately.

2: Find  how you can add to the tune using your personal knowledge of music theory.

3: Play below the  melody, unless your music theory knowledge allows yo to do otherwise.

4: Have the technical ability to execute your accompaniment, (probably this should be #1)

if you can do all of this....Edit: (on the fly), "you are a better man than i"....

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...that's one way to do it.  But I'm not "a better man" than you.