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Originally posted by tonyelder

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together?  

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 Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

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...but the more I think about that (above), the more I realize ---- I could just learn to play second fiddle against the fiddler on the recordings I originally learn the tune from - I am more "intimately" familiar with those tunes. It doesn't speak to the original idea of playing second to someone playing a tune or version of a tune I'm not familiar with.  It would be an "ear training" practice exercise - to work on picking up second parts (even a counter melody) "on the fly".  

There ya go. Staring me right in the face. 

Just like any skill you desire to acquire: identify it, dissect it to the simplest parts; practise repeat and progress.

Thats what I did with the Dan and Brad vid; found the chords first which I discovered were same as the tune I know 'Shepherds Hay'; G C G D. Heard the notes of the G pentatonic scale specially over the G chord. Noticed the melody using the missing notes from the pentatonic on the C and D chord ( C & F# ). Selected other notes from the C and D chords to harmonize, and copied some melodic fragments an octave lower. Followed the melodic contour or played in contrary motion, and played in the lower register never overlapping the melody. Used some shuffles on the double stops.

Practicing by listening and working out accompanying lines can develop one’s ability to more quickly devise lines. With enough practice and study one will become familiar with the mechanics of the lines and will find it possible to improvise on the spot.

My great friend and fiddle teacher when I was growing up loved to listen to Jean-Luc Ponty and Mark O’Connor in his shop, and he would regularly whistle or sing his own lines that worked in concert with the solos. This informed his improvisation, and he was one of the most natural improvisers I’ve met. When he performed he often improvised on the spot. I think the fact that he played multiple instruments and understood their chord patterns further helped him to come up with ideas. I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but he joined me during my Halloween-themed recital for a rendition of Devil’s Dream. For some of it he played the saw, but he also played an accompaniment on fiddle for a couple iterations. When he was playing fiddle during our first rehearsal, he came up with a line on the spot that worked in harmony with the melody. He took the opportunity to demonstrate his process and made it one of our last lessons.

First of all, as long as the chords haven't changed, play your own version and don't worry about it much. But one thing I would do is to play a litttle softer with an ear toward the other fiddler, to make sure their timing is the same as yours.

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Originally posted by buckhenry

Just like any skill you desire to acquire: identify it, dissect it to the simplest parts; practise repeat and progress.

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...what a novel idea.    Thanks Buck.    Reminders don't hurt a thing. 

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Originally posted by buckhenry

Thats what I did with the Dan and Brad vid; found the chords first which I discovered were same as the tune I know 'Shepherds Hay'; G C G D. Heard the notes of the G pentatonic scale specially over the G chord. Noticed the melody using the missing notes from the pentatonic on the C and D chord ( C & F# ). Selected other notes from the C and D chords to harmonize, and copied some melodic fragments an octave lower. Followed the melodic contour or played in contrary motion, and played in the lower register never overlapping the melody. Used some shuffles on the double stops.

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I'll tell you like I told Pete: "I'm not a better man that you."   This sounds an awful lot like "composition" and less like "improvisation" - at least from where I stand. "What's wrong with that?" Absolutely nothing - if you have those kinds of skills. I don't.  And - right or wrong - I have no intention of acquiring those skills at that level at this time in my life. I'm proud for you having them. Seriously. 

At best, I'm at this stage:  "..it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational - an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune"

Context: This was one of the options I listed for - "what to do when you are playing fiddle in a session with another fiddler - and they play a tune you don't know or one you know, but aren't familiar with the version they are playing." This was my "fantasy" choice.

So, this would be done "in the moment". There would be no time for creating a  "composition". If you are going to play "second fiddle" it has to be "improvisation" / "on the fly". I'm sure it can be done,  And - yes, it would definitely involve practicing with that focus in mind. Listening skills would be about as important as playing skills,  You have to be able to hear more that just the melody. But my point was - in the context of the OP - it wouldn't be necessary to "know" the melody - to work around it, if you can hear and understand the musical progression of the tune - you can offer a tasteful accompaniment "on the fly". That would be ideal (to me) - my fantasy. 

Thanks the comments.

I'd like to add another fairly obvious "thought", Hopefully appropriate to all of this.

In my opinion:  Second fiddle - or any and every other "part" of a tune being played that is not the melody - should only be done as a supportive role suited to accompany the melody of the tune - accompaniment. It should not distract from the melody. I shouldn't replace the melody. Its not more important than the melody. It should support the melody. It should point to the melody. Would it be silly to say - it should dance with the melody, celebrate the melody, amplify the melody.

Work within the melody, not outside the melody. How many "solo's" have you heard that are not based on (or work off of) the melody? ...I like them better when they are.  

I guess there is always going to be exceptions to the rule, but...

Sorry. Here's another "observation".

Listening to what is there (melody) while trying to hear what is not there (what we want to add) is tricky. We're reaching into that creative part of our musical self. It is where we practice magic. Once ideas are formulated, it becomes easier. These kinds of ideas are more "generic" or "universal: because they aren't a specific melody - don't need to be , and in most cases, they shouldn't be.

I see these as all related skills of playing by ear. 

Improvising is form of composing. Just doing so more quickly, by ear on the fly. 

What Buck described is just bit of top down process that many find useful... start more with larger structural, using understanding of musical concepts, key/scale/mode; how chords work, within that; how rhythm aspect works. Coming up with chord/rhythm accompaniment on the fly (fiddle or other instrument). Useful for then improvising a melodic lead/break; but as well a way for simply picking up tunes by ear.

With practice focusing on understanding and then recognizing concepts... it becomes quick to do on the fly.

Second fiddle - or any and every other "part" of a tune being played that is not the melody

I would extend that to say "lead" melody; with that I include a version of your list #6... is a form of seconding, or could think of as like harmonizing using unisons and/or octave.

Naw, this ain't rocket science.
1.Find the key. (Last note of the tune)
2. It'll either go to the 4 or the 5. (Better than a 50/50 chance if you have a good ear)
That arguably covers 75 to 80% of all music.
2a. A lot of OT is 2 chord stuff. It either goes to the 4 or the 5, then back. Sometimes quickly. Sometimes you can beat away on the root/key chord for the whole thing, or until you get it. Remember a tub bass doesn't even do as much.

Now, if you don't understand what a 4 or 5 chord is, Google, 'Nashville number system chart.' If the only thing in your house is fiddles, get a $30 Rogue mandolin, and a two finger chord diagram.(2 finger chord page) Oh, and a pick.

I used to practice this by listening to an AM country music station.
Find the key. Find the 1st change. Find the 2nd change. Maybe try to play along. If not, there was always another song coming.

Is there still radio stations?

Yes by Crakey there are still radio stations.

As farmerjones sez...

I personally do it by listening to the tune and figuring out the tune's Do-Re-Mi's. If the tune is singable and folk-like to my ear, chances are very, very good that it starts on the Do. From there, it's a good bet the tune simply marches straight up the major scale to the Re. If it doesn't, chances are more than decent that it skips the Re and instead goes to the Major Third, which is the Mi. If the song is a Blues, chances are pretty good that the tune goes from the Do to that oh-so bluesy Minor Third, which sits a half-step below (in other words a hair below) the Major Third.

Give this stuff a go. With any luck it'll all soon make perfect sense to your ear.

This sounds an awful lot like "composition" and less like "improvisation" -

 Improvisation is composition...'on the fly'! 

Since you posted an example of Dan seconding  I thought this was your desired outcome. What I tried to describe in my previous post was what Dan is actually playing. Maybe the terminology made it sound too much like the rules of composition.  

I believe  many people have learnt to improvise with out knowing the theory/terminology of what they're doing.  I was not one of those people, I had to work from the top down, gradually building the skills required for improvisation 'one step at a time'. You seem to want your fantasy to come true right now, yes, I had the same fantasy.  Frederick Matthias Alexander called this the 'End Gainers Syndrome' . Is anything wrong with that, on the contrary, I believe this to be a good motivator. But the process needs to be broken down into small steps if you want to build solid foundations, and I believe all improvisers have done this regardless whether they know the theory/terminology or not.         

LOL. OK. This thread has morphed into more than I had intended in the OP. Seems that happens a lot. No problem. But I do think it might be good to review what aimed at. Unfortunately, I screwed up and deleted the original content () - but I tried to recreate what I said - and that was:

"When playing fiddle with another fiddler, and you discover that your plying a different version of a tune that what the other fidler is playing, what do you do?" ...and I commenced to offer selections to choose from. ...one of which was seconding. I post a video of Dan becasue I have always been impressed with so much of what he does, but his "seconding" is magic to me. 

Now please understand. I've been playing music since I was 14 and I'm knocking on 74. I started out with formal lessons and familiar with a lot of things - but I quit formal lessons when I knew enough to be a "R&R star". Everything since then has been pretty much by ear. I understand ear training and stuff. I'm not great - don't pretend to be, but... I've spent enough time... you know. 

Now - having said that - George:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I see these as all related skills of playing by ear. 

Improvising is form of composing. Just doing so more quickly, by ear on the fly. 

What Buck described is just bit of top down process that many find useful... start more with larger structural, using understanding of musical concepts, key/scale/mode; how chords work, within that; how rhythm aspect works. Coming up with chord/rhythm accompaniment on the fly (fiddle or other instrument). Useful for then improvising a melodic lead/break; but as well a way for simply picking up tunes by ear.

With practice focusing on understanding and then recognizing concepts... it becomes quick to do on the fly.

Second fiddle - or any and every other "part" of a tune being played that is not the melody

I would extend that to say "lead" melody; with that I include a version of your list #6... is a form of seconding, or could think of as like harmonizing using unisons and/or octave.

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Please forgive me . But I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, if you don't mind. Of course you can say that improvisation is a form of composition - and I could say any time we pick up any instrument and try to play it for the first time - it could qualify as a form of composition. But please - don't miss my point here. I wasn't being dismissive in my comments to Buck. I was confessing to my lack of academic music skills that he apparently has. I certainly wasn't talking down to someone - I would look up to on such things. 

I do understand (believe me - I do) what we are talking about attempting to master is the same process as learning any other skill.  If you have read anything I have said in the past (even recently) you know I understand what it takes. And I know that - you know that - I know that. () My point is - in this case - this is more than learning to imitate what you hear. It is listening and then also learning how to hear something else - that isn't there - that has to work with what you hear. For me it will be straight up improvisation. But I know improvisation skills are helped when you have a strong musical background in theory. I understand that.

But I also know (from 60 years of application) it can be learned without the necessity of formal training. And the results can be just as inspiring. And yes - I understand  - If I can't do that on the fly right now - it might be more like "composing" until I learn what works best. And then it can be on the fly - more like improvising.  I think of composing like working from a script, and improv - going off script. 

Hope to see you in a few weeks.   Are you still going to Guido"s? Are they still meeting on Wednesday nights?

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Originally posted by buckhenry

This sounds an awful lot like "composition" and less like "improvisation" -

 Improvisation is composition...'on the fly'! 

Since you posted an example of Dan seconding  I thought this was your desired outcome. What I tried to describe in my previous post was what Dan is actually playing. Maybe the terminology made it sound too much like the rules of composition.  

I believe  many people have learnt to improvise with out knowing the theory/terminology of what they're doing.  I was not one of those people, I had to work from the top down, gradually building the skills required for improvisation 'one step at a time'. You seem to want your fantasy to come true right now, yes, I had the same fantasy.  Frederick Matthias Alexander called this the 'End Gainers Syndrome' . Is anything wrong with that, on the contrary, I believe this to be a good motivator. But the process needs to be broken down into small steps if you want to build solid foundations, and I believe all improvisers have done this regardless whether they know the theory/terminology or not.         

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First - let me apologize if my other post in response to you sounded condescending. It was certainly not intended that way. I have a great deal of respect for you and you skills. I meant what I said - "I'm not a better man that you."  And 74 is not the best time to be learning new skills. 

As I said above - this topic was aimed at something else. It was never meant to be a discussion about "seconding" only - but I'm kind of glad we landed here. I used the  word "fantasy" as a way to communicate the idea that - "seconding" was something I always admired and thought  "I'd love to do be able to do that." And the video of Dan was to illustrate who and what made me feel that way. 

None of this was me "pouring out my frustrations" at not being able to realize my "dream" or "fantasy".  But - since the discussion seems to have gone this way - it has inspired me to spend some time working a little towards that end. I think it is worth the effort. We'll see... 

Thanks for the input. 

 

"A lot of OT is 2 chord stuff" really?

sure a person can find a way to cram fiddle tunes into two or three chords , but that approach is a limitation inflicted onto tunes by accompanists not limitations of the music itself

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Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

"A lot of OT is 2 chord stuff" really?

sure a person can find a way to cram fiddle tunes into two or three chords , but that approach is a limitation inflicted onto tunes by accompanists not limitations of the music itself

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'A lot of OT is 2 chord stuff.'   - Yep. That's what I typed.

'sure a person can find a way to cram fiddle tunes into two or three chords. . . ' - So you agree.

What part of my reply made it sound like I was answering a question at Berkeley?  Those were rudimentary roadmaps for rudimentary results. What if someone reading this didn't go to Berkeley or have thousands or hours of experience? Or what if said readers experience never went as far as deriving chords? I don't think this thread would have gone as far as it did, if there weren't interest in deriving chords. Sure, fiddle seconding is the main subject, but as you know the three parts of music, Melody, Harmony, and Meter, it's hard not to call seconding/accompaniment Harmony.  Harmony and Chord theory is at least a semester. We could go deep diving into inversions, modes and Sus chords, but I gotta mow my lawn. 

...mowed yesterday. Today, its prepping 4 varieties of skullcap for cold stratification and freeze drying lemon balm. 

OT session tonight.  

Got 2 hours of sleep last night, due to severe storms.
Guess what we have tonight? Possible 80mph straight line winds. Puts everything into perspective.

Well, there is some “method” to it that can be learned and practiced…

I took a music Improv class at the local community arts center for fun, a few years ago. we’d start by identifying what key something is in, then playing the scales & arpeggios that fit in that key, then picking out notes that harmonize/enhance the melody. We would go round the circle taking turns playing “breaks” while the teacher played chords on the keyboard. Fun class! it was only 4 weeks - not in-depth - but if you kept practicing like that at home, I imagine that you could probably get pretty good at improv…

There are definitely methods that one can use to develop improvisational skills. Even if you aren’t following a specific method, you have to find a way to develop the skills through learning and practice; courses or methods are just laid out in a way that focuses on essentials and on making progress efficiently.

There’s a romantic idea that jazz players are just naturally able to come up with completely new melodic ideas out of nothing and that their playing is always creative. That’s just not reality, as players develop their abilities through countless hours of practice and immersion in the music to get a feel for its structure. Many excellent musicians have had little or no formal training, but they were able to become successful players because they found different avenues to reach the desired results, and while they might not use the same terminology to explain what they were doing, they would have a grasp of the concepts that music theory covers. For example, I’ve heard it said that jazz is about “knowing where the changes occur,” which essentially means knowing how the chord progressions unfold ahead of time to be able to fit a melodic line in with them seamlessly. I would strongly recommend reading this article:
wyntonmarsalis.org/news/entry/...-and-isnt

The above covers jazz, which is different from the playing one does in fiddle music, but it should be remembered that jazz has influenced other American music forms since its founding, and many fiddlers have listened to and drawn from the music of jazz players.

This line from the article really rings true for me:
“Genius always manifests itself through attention to fine detail. Works of great genius sound so natural they appear simple, but this is the simplicity of elimination, not the simplicity of ignorance.”

here' a couple fiddlers fiddling...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENhcw7s5GoY
 

OK. I’m going to make a couple of statements – so y’all will have something to “jump on”.   Now, these are my opinions – there’s no pile of evidence to prove anything – that I know of.

Any performance of a melody played on any instrument will always be “being seconded” when another instrument offers an accompaniment to the melody being played – even if the other instrument is also playing the melody (if it isn’t the lead instrument).

Chucking chords in rhythm; playing long bow notes, double stops, or chords; walking, bass lines with lead ins or fills; harmonies based off the melody; or counter melodies. None of those would be considered “playing the same thing” - but they would all be “seconding" the melody: 

Each of those require a different focus and skill. Theoretically, any or all of them could be played at the same time and still provide a rich accompaniment to the melody.  I’m thinking of Tuba Skinny right now – though there are PLENTY of other examples. They aren’t saying the same thing – but they are all talking about the same thing – communicating musically with each other - with one thought in mind – the melody.

Yes, that is a very broad generalization. But it applies. If the fiddle is the lead instrument playing the melody of a fiddle tune, then any other instrument will be playing a second part – supporting the melody, a part that is “related” to the melody. If it doesn’t, it won’t sound related to the melody. A second fiddle will be playing “second fiddle” – how they do that depends on the objective of the second fiddler and what part they want to play. Same with banjo, guitar, mandolin, bass, or – whatever.

I know - that seems obvious. But to me, it needs to be understood that way in order to make sense of any discussion about “seconding”. 

In my recent post about "phrasing" i came across a strategy/technique that might work for seconding. That is to listen to how a Phrase ends (ie: ascending or descending), and do the opposite . This creates a harmony at the end of the phrase, and suggests a chord, but sticks to the melody at the start or middle of the phrase. Also means you only have to think about altering 1 or 2 notes at the end of the phrase.

Just tried it with "Temperance reel" ("Tea Totallers"), seems to work for me. Makes more difference than you would think at first.

I think I've answered my OP now. If what I said is true, then the melody that is being played by the lead instrument is more important that the melody you remember, learned, or want to play. You are seconding the lead instrument - the part you play should be in response to and supportive of that melody.

We can discuss the variations and differences afterward (if that seems necessary). If my version works with what is being played, great, if not - then...

Whatever instrument I play - what I play, should be based on what I hear - and compliment that best I can - if I'm not leading the tune with the melody.

I think my problem has been - always thinking that I need to play the melody along with the lead instrument, instead of listening for possibilities. So, when I join a session with "strangers" I feel like I'm not playing well if I can't follow them pretty close to note for note. . Not really a "trap" - but it is not learning to hear potential opportunities. Maybe a personal story, later.

Then again, this whole idea may not work in "some circles" - if you know what I mean.

(Pete - I agree.)