I've been in a hundred jams where I never knew anyone's name, even. Let alone anything about them.

I don't care if you're Purple.
If you want to make a big deal out of being classically trained, that's your trip.
There's only one unwritten, unspoken rule at a jam. Can you hang?

No. The question is - ...can you do the boogaloo, LIKE I DO?

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Originally posted by tonyelder

No. The question is - ...can you do the boogaloo, LIKE I DO?

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ROFLMAO!

Now I gotta dig out my copy of Marlon Brando's, The Wild One

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I've been in a hundred jams where I never knew anyone's name, even. Let alone anything about them.

I don't care if you're Purple.
If you want to make a big deal out of being classically trained, that's your trip.
There's only one unwritten, unspoken rule at a jam. Can you hang?

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I agree that it shouldn't matter where anyone learned to play, only if they can do so.

What gets me is that there are so many stories shared and they almost always start with something like: "a player showed up to my jam and started playing, and I could tell right away it was someone who played classical music." It's not a story about a player showing up and saying "I play classical music and I'm here to subjugate you all to my way of playing." It's always that someone shows up and sounds different, and isn't it just terrible? And Heaven forfend they come with "dots" and a music stand!

Elitism exists among some players, but not often the truly talented ones. My father interviewed just about all the current top players and even a few of the greats before they died, and always said that the interviews with the best players were the most exciting because there was always a genuine curiosity, a great deal of humility, and no pretensions. I recall a couple interviews that were nightmares because the players were so caught up in themselves it was almost impossible to get them to say anything interesting--they were too stuck on trying to micro-manage their images and say what they thought would be the most impressive for the magazine. One time an agent even apologized for the player's behavior and said "I'm very sorry that you had to deal with that. She's this way all the time and I don't understand why."

But the elitist attitude isn't something that shows up in one isolated place, either. In every aspect of life you can find it. Classical players are often automatically labeled that way because there's an assumption that they feel superior because they spend more on their instruction, instruments, bows, and accessories. Neither aspect of that myth is accurate.

The flagging interest in the site has become a persistent topic of late, and it seems to me that if anyone hopes to keep the hangout alive, either the same people who usually post just have to do a lot more posting and be content with fewer members getting into the mix or the site has to find a way to attract more members.

Here's something to consider: a player shows up out of curiosity about Old Time, having perhaps listened a bit, played something in orchestra that led to wanting to explore, or having been invited by a friend. Showing up for the first time, of course the different style will be hard to assimilate on the spot. Players on this very forum often say that  Old Time music is a discipline that takes years to learn well, so why hold it against a new player who doesn't sound like a veteran player and just tries to do their best to make sense of it, relying on the training they've received? If anyone thinks they're hiding their contempt for classical players well at jams by not saying something openly hostile, let's just say for the record that it's not subtle, and I suspect it's why a lot of the players in these stories don't come back and they tend to be confined to a single event, not a recurring one. If anyone is concerned with players "sounding right" and truly wants that to change, would it not be more effective to make those players feel welcome enough to want to return  and dive deeper into the genre? I think if you're worried that someone isn't fitting into the groove, the best course is to drag them with you to every jam you can so that they'll become more and more immersed. Lead by example and explain about not playing loudly if you don't know the tune by demonstrating the point at a jam. 

I played in a session once where an Irish flute player sat next to me. She was well-established in the scene and had the respect of all the players. Before the session ended, she turned to me an told me that she had gotten into the Irish flute from a classical flute background. When she started coming to sessions, she saw right away that there was a dislike for even the word "classical," so she pretended to be new to the flute in general and never told anyone about having learned classical flute for fear of being ostracized by the group. She said that playing by ear had always been a struggle for her, so she would pull the tunes up on her phone screen to play them covertly, and she was careful enough to be able to convince everyone that she was just using the phone to record the tunes for future reference. This went on for years before she told a soul, and she said that even at present she had only revealed this to a few people. 

Isn't there a difference between an anonymous forum and real life?
Heck, I could be a dalmatian in a firehouse. No, wait. I've posted videos of my poor, sorry arse trying to play.
Truth: This here fiddle was purchased from a guy and his brother that were big stuff in a metropolitan symphony who may still run a small shop. I would purposely wear my bib-overalls into the shop for tasting times. We had so much mutual respect it was pitiful. Sometimes we'd get into trouble cuz there were things we should have been doing. But you know how it goes. "Here, try this. Now try this. Wait, try this bow. What do you think of this?" Hours went by.
Thanks for that memory. Merry Christmas

Back in my 1970's rock-and-roll guitar days I found myself playing in a punk rock band. I loved punk rock with a passion and enjoyed the heck out of playing the stuff, but I faced constant flack from my band mates because I wouldn't make my every pick stroke a genuine punk rock-approved down stroke. They had to keep me in the band, though, because I was the only one in the group with a place where we could practice...

Rich, you'd have to ask people who are of the opinion and behavior that you're describing.

I think it is unavoidable to notice the he aint' one of us type...if somebody comes along and plays differently...but so what? That's what I was talking about with my own guitar playing...it's more than obvious I have no classical training in guitar but I have awkwardly trod through a few classical guitar tunes, however I could manage and however untrained I sounded...I usually prefaced those tunes with "Kentucky Fried," just as an explanation and to avoid shocking people who were listening...but I loved playing them my own way and never got tomatoes thrown at me. So...yeah, I can tell when a classical violinist is playing OT ... not so much BG...because really the smooth long bows of a lot of bluegrass really don't seem to stray too far from classical playing in my humble self-taught opinion.

But I do believe music is for everybody who feels the desire to partake. We ain't all the same, but that's ok. If some others seem to notice...it might not be an insult, or even if it is...they're the ones who have the issue...not the ones playing. I say ignore the naysayers and they will eventually come around. And even if they don't...who cares? Lol...I mean as long as they don't stop you from playing.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Rich, you'd have to ask people who are of the opinion and behavior that you're describing.

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Did you miss the recent exchange where a player with a classical background was hurt enough by an insult that fits the bill exactly that she stopped playing for a few days and seriously considered quitting the site altogether? That's a perfect illustration that doesn't even come from me. I've listed others from direct experience in my last post as well. How many more are needed?

Yeah I saw that. But you asked what about people who do that? And I said ask the people who do that to other people.

I'm saying I don't know why people do that, but they shouldn't and the rest of us don't need to go along with it. I think musicians should encourage others. Music is for anybody who wants to touch it, and exclusion is just a bad idea...that's what I'm saying.

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I've been in a hundred jams where I never knew anyone's name, even. Let alone anything about them.

I don't care if you're Purple.
If you want to make a big deal out of being classically trained, that's your trip.
There's only one unwritten, unspoken rule at a jam. Can you hang?

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100%!  For me it's all about the music and what you make together.

I think that there is a vibe I get from fiddlers that they think "violinists" look down on them? For me, that was never true. It was just trying to learn another way of playing...the rhythm, the groove, the bowing, the style are different - but so fun to learn and try. As for playing folk...let's just say that I was rummaging through my college CDs the other day  (very dusty!) and I found CDs by Bothy Band, Capercaillie, Planxty...so I've been listening to Celtic/Irish Trad since my 20s!? In that sense, I do fit with my fellow sessioners LOL...

@Anja, thanks, and not ghosting! :-). I was busy doing Christmas cards and Christmasy stuff today...yea, nobody is at work...the grocery store was crowded and packed at 2pm!

I will always offer a tip or show a lick or technique to anyone IF ASKED. Occasionally even if not asked. But most often that ask does not happen and the person either continues bulling through or stops coming. I will always ask if I hear something I need or want to learn to do. Most (but not all) times the fiddler will show me. I needed to learn how to do the end part of a classical tune, used in the movie Master and Commander, a Boccherini piece used to close the movie out (both the movie and the piece are quite popular in pirate circles). A classical trained fiddler, a really good one, was at a BG jam and I asked him, and he gladly showed me the technique. Conversely, I love cajun music, and went to see Beau Sole', front row seats to see them. I had spoken to the fiddler before the show and I asked specifically about this one tunes passage that I could just not figure out. When the band played the tune, and it came time for this part, the guy purposely turned his back to the audience so I could not see his left hand fingering. So this purported humbleness, willingness to learn from sources outside one's purview is not quite as pervasive as one might surmise. I find it more present with fiddlers then violinists. At a Scottish jam, an early one, I knew my Scottish snap was woefully lacking and I asked one of the fiddlers to step aside and show me how to do it effectively. Same jam, an obviously more accomplished violinist then I was also not getting the snap, but continued bulling through the session. I don't presume to know why, I only know I've seen this enough times to make note of it.

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

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Originally posted by NCnotes

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Classical violinists trying fit into to fiddle/folk music culture and community.

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Bye guys.
I am heading out.
Tired of this.

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?????

Not sure why you are quoting me?

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I posted was in reply to the OP, Tony asked for examples of idea of a “fad” related to fiddling.

Classical violinists trying fit into to fiddle/folk music culture and community.

I was referring to OP "fad"; a new interest/activity that is short-lived, unsustained, and then fades. Often driven by hype, novelty, romanticism, stereotype, and/or of some social pressure; and wanting to fit in being compatible with some currently admirable social norms of segment of society, group of people or community. Trying to adopt perceived attitude, behavior, appearance, or style of the group/community. (such as image of being ”folk” or “folksy”; or being Irish musician around St. Patty’s day).

But as based on or having different goals, values, purpose; lack of sustenance, and/or find it wasn’t that easy, more work or time than really sincerely interested in pursuing further. Thus they decided was just passing fancy, a “fad” for them.

That's all.

Nowhere in those words state nor express any opinion about prejudging individuals from background of classical music or formal music lessons necessarily preventing individuals from playing, learning, or adapting to fit into a folk culture and community; understanding the different values, goals, purpose. IMO that's their decision and responsibility; whether they struggle, succeed or not, either can or they can't.