Maybe because NCnotes is a classically trained violinist who enjoys exploring Irish music in local sessions?
C'mon NCnotes - Don't you find it entertaining to see people displaying their ignorant prejudices, even in jest?

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

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Originally posted by NCnotes

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Classical violinists trying fit into to fiddle/folk music culture and community.

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Bye guys.
I am heading out.
Tired of this.

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?????

Not sure why you are quoting me?

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I have a feeling that your insult was aimed at me, but I wish you would think through your comments more before posting them, as they clearly don't always land as you intend. This is exactly what I'm getting at when I write about Old Time players who drive new players away. 

I just get tired of the endless bashing of classically trained players…when the session leaders around here and my favorite co-players (including my flute friend, who has played clarinet and baroque recorder) have had some classical training AKA music lessons in their childhood…I played at a sesh on Friday with a local music professor and she was a brilliant player, knows loads of tunes and has great groove.

And I like you Geo, and your posts, and I find it cool that you live in Alaska and you seem like a nice person and good musician - but I just can’t take it anymore!

Not only for myself, but for all the lovely talented people I play with - who have had piano/sax/clarinet/violin lessons in their youth and I guess you would call them
“classically trained”.

Classical players can’t play folk…
White guys can’t rap (or play the blues)…
Black people can’t play classical…

All these stereotypes are sad, and the way we put people in boxes, and the way this country is now, it’s a sore point with me.I dunno why it has to happen in the music world too, and I come here to escape this kind of stuff and just talk music, but music is also not free of prejudices/stereotypes it seems.

I’m not good enough to look down on anyone who plays either the fiddle or the violin.

I do wish that I had classical training when I was a kid. If I had started with Suzuki when I was six years old, maybe I wouldn’t be wasting time now trying to unlearn bad habits.

I'm just glad that folk don't seem to be filtering their posts through AI before posting..."Posting by the seat of their pants" so to speak ....

...thinking of NCnotes.... A long time friend of mine, Deb Shebish, who many of you may know from CLifftop, is one of those fiddlers who can play classical, celtic, old time and bluegrass.. all WELL..So, there are always exceptions...and possibly NCnotes is also someone, classically trained who can play old time well...just sayin'.

I'm sure I've mentioned this too many times on this site, but once-upon-a-time...okay, for thirty+ years...I worked in the movie business. My job had me reading three hundred+ scripts a year in a quest to track down those I thought might eventually emerge as financially successful films. The overriding question was "do I like it?" Does it push my emotional buttons? Do I believe enough people would react similarly it they saw a movie based upon it? Or as my boss would growl, "Is it good?"

NC Notes. I hope you can stick around here. Although I know it gets tiring, especially so online.

I hope I'm not one to bash classical players, because I don't mean to ever discourage anyone who enjoys making music, in their own way, which to me is the, well really the most beautiful thing a person can do for themselves and for whoever or whatever is in earshot. I love reading your posts and I hope you can bring yourself to sticking around here, although if you can't, I get it.

I've been kicked off of a message board and walked away pretty upset at another...lol. FHO is the only one of three ...not all music but just other stuff. I guess online discussion is a delicate art in and of itself...but in person it can be tough too. I've felt ganged up against a few times, whether real or my imagination...even at the BG jams. I'd play stuff and all these other old fiddler guys would try to show me note by note all the things I was doing wrong...lol. Not fun when you didn't go for lessons, just for jamming. anyway, it can be a hurtful thing sometimes. I love your posts, always cheers up my day, and I hope you will stay, but I would certainly understand if you felt you had to stay away.

It’s OK to disagree. In fact, when people have different perspectives is often when I learn things best.

And it works best when people are respectful toward one another.

NC, the ones who bash the classical are missing something in their lives...especially when we're talking about this beloved instrument. Smh...

Aw shucks guys…
ok, I am here…

Lee told me to come check the posts..

And I hope I did not offend Geo! (George?) It was not in any way personal…it was just one of the “last straw” things, y’know…you let 37 comments slide and for no rational reason, comment #38 and you just hit the wall.

I felt kind of bad and I actually didn’t feel like playing music for a couple of days, which is historic for me - and I was thinking that maybe this forum was bad for my mental/musical health.

It’s ironic because as I was stewing over FHO and thinking yea, I will never belong, this is what they are all thinking…a couple of emails came in inviting me to play…and I thought, maybe this should trump the opinions on FHO because these are my real-life session mates and they like playing with me. Somebody sent a Matt Molloy recording of a reel they like, and I’m working on learning it so we can play it together next time …

Anyway guys, thanks for the nice comments. (And Sorry Geo - I didn’t mean to pin it all on you!!)

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Originally posted by NCnotes

Aw shucks guys…
ok, I am here…

Lee told me to come check the posts..

And I hope I did not offend Geo! (George?) It was not in any way personal…it was just one of the “last straw” things, y’know…you let 37 comments slide and for no rational reason, comment #38 and you just hit the wall.

I felt kind of bad and I actually didn’t feel like playing music for a couple of days, which is historic for me - and I was thinking that maybe this forum was bad for my mental/musical health.

It’s ironic because as I was stewing over FHO and thinking yea, I will never belong, this is what they are all thinking…a couple of emails came in inviting me to play…and I thought, maybe this should trump the opinions on FHO because these are my real-life session mates and they like playing with me. Somebody sent a Matt Molloy recording of a reel they like, and I’m working on learning it so we can play it together next time …

Anyway guys, thanks for the nice comments. (And Sorry Geo - I didn’t mean to pin it all on you!!)

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Just soze you know.. I'm enamored by Martin Hayes and am trying my best, as an Old Time fiddler,  to mimic a few of his tunes and style.. So, it goes both ways...Fiddling is fiddling.. 

Yup Martin is one of the “cleaner” sounding players and almost sounds classical when he plays slow…but boy can he get smokin’ when he plays fast! I admire him too.

Ok and here’s a fad in Irish Trad… the blonde ladies wearing long emerald gowns and dancing/swirling/tossing their hair while they fiddle! On high heels, no less!

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Originally posted by NCnotes

Yup Martin is one of the “cleaner” sounding players and almost sounds classical when he plays slow…but boy can he get smokin’ when he plays fast! I admire him too.

Ok and here’s a fad in Irish Trad… the blonde ladies wearing long emerald gowns and dancing/swirling/tossing their hair while they fiddle! On high heels, no less!

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Yes, I remember them.. and one was always wondering if they were really playing while dancing or 'syncing' to music..!!

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

...thinking of NCnotes.... A long time friend of mine, Deb Shebish, who many of you may know from CLifftop, is one of those fiddlers who can play classical, celtic, old time and bluegrass.. all WELL..So, there are always exceptions...and possibly NCnotes is also someone, classically trained who can play old time well...just sayin'.

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This is not the compliment you think it is. It's almost the same thing she was bothered by and I know you don't mean it to be. It's this sentence that undoes your intentions:

"So, there are always exceptions."

If having formal music training makes a person classically trained, I guess I am classically trained. Not for violin but flute and voice. Not to worry though, I'm an exception. Love you, Lee 

I'll see myself out 

Flute & voice, that's pretty cool! Both involve a lot of breath training, I guess...so they're actually related :-)

Anyway no worries!
I'd be content to be able to fiddle capably in even one genre! My journey as a "classical violinist" has not been like I breeze in and play a bunch of tunes... it's been like this:

- trying to learn the tunes by ear (felt very hard & weird at first, but it has become second nature)

- adjusting my sound (I took some lessons with James Kelly because I was like, 'Why does this not sound right? I am stuck!' We worked on bowing: less pressure, less bow...I spent some time with a yellow sticky flag attached to my bow so I could see my bow speed/amount, he told me to play like I was humming a tune while walking on the beach...yes he is an awesome teacher! :-)

- learning to make sets (2 or 3 tunes put together) and lead sets and signal the changes

- playing in sessions, where I met my flute friend...she's been at it 20 years and is one of the best whistle/flute players in the area. I consider her my mentor, and it's because of her example that I will lean over to a new silent shy player and ask if there's a tune they'd like to play...

I think what people find annoying is when a classical player hears any form of traditional music and just thinks "This is easy - I can do this" and dives right in. There was a violin teacher (I think) who joined this forum, asked a few basic questions about old time fiddling - and now she's a fiddle teacher on YouTube!
On the other hand, I think the first two fiddling friends I played with both had classical training. You almost had to in those days if you were outside the tradition, because there were few other resources.
Most of my favorite old time fiddlers in the generation after me have had some classical training (and happen to be women). But they either had a musical life changing epiphany, like Betse Ellis and Violet Hensley, and dove in deeply. Or, today its possible to follow a dual path with lessons like Suzuki, as well as immersion in traditional music through camps and mentoring, and college level traditional music programs. Lissa Schneckenburger, a great contra dance fiddler, came up through Maine fiddle camp and the fiddling scene there, and is also a graduate of the New England Conservatory. Sheila Falls, an Irish American fiddler from Rhode Island, also graduated from the New England Conservatory, and was also an All Ireland champion at age 15.
Also, even in the old days some traditional fiddlers sought formal lessons, Clark Kessinger and Angus Chisholm are two that come to mind.

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

...thinking of NCnotes.... A long time friend of mine, Deb Shebish, who many of you may know from CLifftop, is one of those fiddlers who can play classical, celtic, old time and bluegrass.. all WELL..So, there are always exceptions...and possibly NCnotes is also someone, classically trained who can play old time well...just sayin'.

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This is not the compliment you think it is. It's almost the same thing she was bothered by and I know you don't mean it to be. It's this sentence that undoes your intentions:

"So, there are always exceptions."

If having formal music training makes a person classically trained, I guess I am classically trained. Not for violin but flute and voice. Not to worry though, I'm an exception. Love you, Lee 

I'll see myself out 

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Truth be told... after I'd played OT for several years, my kids started taking Suzuki lesson.. I sat in..and when I got home I tried to do what the instructor taught my kids.. So, in a  way, I'm classically trained!!!

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Originally posted by DougD

I think what people find annoying is when a classical player hears any form of traditional music and just thinks "This is easy - I can do this" and dives right in.

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If anyone just blindly assumes they'll be able to play anything, that's hubris. Being a classical player is irrelevant. It's just as annoying for someone without classical training to show up at a jam and assume they'll be able to play (if they play loudly).

I played at a session a couple years ago where a new guitar player showed up with a slide and lectured everyone on how easy the guitar was to learn because you could play everything by just moving the slide to play barre chords. He was friendly and everyone wanted to be encouraging to a new player, so no one said anything, but he played so loudly and the chords he played were so out of place that it threw everyone in the session off and a couple people just stopped playing until he left because it was too hard for them to focus on the tunes. No one is ever turned away from the group or criticized, but the story of that session has become a popular story. 

Most of the excellent classical players with whom I have the pleasure to work are actually quite humble. In fact, one of them told me about playing in the orchestra for a show with some Irish fiddlers and how she felt relieved that she could be in the background because if she'd had to play with the stars of the show she'd never have been able to do what they did. She viewed their playing as a completely foreign and incomprehensible but equally impressive language. I can understand how she felt, although knowing how incredibly talented she is, I am quite confident that with some careful study she could play Irish tunes well enough to be welcome at any good session. 
 

Classical players are often maligned for being obsessive about detail and perfectionism. While this is sometimes accurate, it doesn't square up with the idea of people showing up to play unfamiliar music and assuming they'd be able to play it well. It would be far more likely for a classical player to be nervous to play at all in front of a group without having prepared extensively. It's more of a trope that classical players want sheet music because they want to be able to prepare in advance so that they're not making fools of themselves. 
 

The players who show up having  already decided they'll be able to play anything and everything  are not usually very skilled players--of fiddle music or classical. 

There have been a few occasions that I've been asked "are you classically trained"; I always say yes even though I never had a proper lesson in my life, (and under my breath I'm saying "yes, I achieved my goal").
I'll continue to draw out warm tones with my expressive bow strokes, and use vibrato anywhere I like.
Some times there are comments about the vibrato, I just say I got the nervous shakes.
I never say I can play anything and everything, but if you don't mind I'll give it a good shot by following the chords over your songs and fiddle tunes.

A lot of the clean fast fiddlers can sound like they’ve had violin lessons, I agree! (Maybe some of them have, who knows! )

I’m trying to learn the chords/drones/backup improv thing…I’ve tried it a few times and nobody gave me the Eye…but I was playing pretty softly LOL.

I think I can tell when a person has classical training on either fiddle or guitar. So what? Guitar pickers pick different...there was one woman who was big on YouTube a while back...I mean not just on YouTube but I guess on concerts and just among guitar enthusiasts...I can't remember her name because I just never had the habit of following musicians...lol...always just wanted to play more than listen...but anyway, whatever her name was/is...she's good...really good. And you can tell by how she picks, fingerpicks, and just the way she barres the chords and moves around and sounds, yep, for sure she had classical guitar ... but so what...she's good. She plays Bluegrassish stuff on guitar and it would sound different if Merle Travis did the same thing. I can tell she's got classical training.

Same with BG fiddlers I've seen...a lot of them have such fancy maneuvers on the fiddle they sound like they could be doing Bach if they chose...but it's good fiddling. I mean...I can tell. They don't do it anything like I do...lol...but good for them. I'm definitely fumbly and self taught. I've played a couple of classical guitar/lute pieces on my guitar before...it was hard and I had to change it around a lot just to meet the logistics of getting it to sound like the piece I was playing...so I guess the classical guitarists can listen and laugh, maybe...lol...but I enjoyed playing it so I did. I've forgotten those by now...too many years away from them. Here's one that ended up on YouTube several years ago... not to show off, but to make my point...it's obvious I am not a classically trained guitarist...lol youtu.be/drE3ZAcKyA0?si=PlScZyP317ZWJI6p So it goes both ways. There's music and there's people who just love to play.

Music is for everybody.

I played with a guy who was classically trained since 4 years old. To me, he was a magician. He could play ANY sheet music you put in front of him. Within seconds. Tone, pitch, and intonation was nothing we had to worry about with him. He also knew and liked to improv and jam. So, we'd give him a fiddle tune and he ripped it but sure, it was pretty sounding. But note for note.

Then I know this other guy who was strictly an OT player and could not make sense of bluegrass. He only knew that style. Which back then,it frustrated me. Because he was an incredible OT player but did not have the sense to play bluegrass. And sure, his intonation was hairy but that's the sound he was going for.

This was decades before I ever handled a Violin/Fiddle.

The advantage goes to the Classical guy. But to each their own. I think the Classical guy could cover and fall into OT and BG given the right direction. Where the OT/BG players would have a harder time falling into Symphony No. 5 in C minor I think.

Any time I hear the violin played well, I think to myself the hours that person put into their instrument. Heck, I'm jealous of all of it.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Music is for everybody.

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I'd like to think this is true, but if so, why is it that so many Old Time players take umbrage at the idea that a player "sounds classical?" No one ever complains about a fiddler sounding more jazzy or more Celtic or more West African. Old Time is always described as a melting pot of styles, but for some reason the line stops at classical. It's especially odd because other styles embrace classical players and the music so much more.

If "playing your own way" is an important part of the tradition (an argument I hear a lot here), why would it be disingenuous for a classical player to bring a different perspective to the playing of a tune, just as a fiddler supposedly reinterprets what he hears?

The double standard of "playing it your own way" and "that doesn't sound like Old Time" is offputting to people who take an interest in the genre, only to be discouraged by the players. 

@NCNotes: We all know you are one hell of a fiddler! You are a great inspiration and add your own signature in the discussions and conversations that are shared here. So don't you dare to think of ghosting us!
!'m guilty of bashing a certain type of elite classically trained euro violinists / musicians  in the past,  but the accent is on this elite attitude.  Within certain circles you have to blow out golden bubbles when you open your mouth to speak - just in order to get accepted. I see it as a euro thing, but it's possible I'm totally wrong on that one.