i took it to mean something like "hay seed"... i don't know much about him, but seems to me he was a pretty slick character who wanted to make a polished and modern sound with his recordings

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Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

i took it to mean something like "hay seed"... i don't know much about him, but seems to me he was a pretty slick character who wanted to make a polished and modern sound with his recordings

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Lol, the opposite of what I thought. TBH I don't recall what the fiddling was like on those recordings and didn't go and listen before commenting.

Peggy, I think the fiddling of Jerry Rivers on Hank Williams' recordings would just be called "country." The fiddle players of that era often payed in several "genres." They might tour with Hank Snow, Roy Acuff or Ray Price, but also play on a Bill Monroe session. "Old time" music, which was also "country," just the first form to be commercialized (and they hadn't discovered that name for it yet) as a commercially recorded and natiionally broadcast musical style didn't survive the Depression and WW2, with only a few exceptions. Grandpa Jones was out there, largely as a comic character, and the Opry trotted out a dwindling cast of old timers, like the McGee brothers, to play for the dancers, but that was about it. Our departed member Jerry Holmes was probably the only example of that I recall on this board.
A band of fiddle, guitar, bass, and lap or simple steel guitar (and maybe a banjo), was common in the early years of "country" music, and was still pretty common around here when I first moved here c. 1980. Now that I think about it, I played electrified rhythm guitar and banjo in a band like that (but also including drums) when I was in the Army in 1966 - called the "Jubilee Playboys," whatever that means! I may still have the black and white tooled belt that was part of our outfit, but it would be a little small by now!
IMHO, the contemporary "old time" music that I think is sometimes being referenced in this thread, has little or nothing in common with the music of the "golden era," in terms of repertoire, style, or cultural or social context or function, so it can't be a "snapshot" of something antique. Thats not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is. Music evolves, and why anyone cares if what they consider "old time" music is thriving in DC or Long Island, or struggle to define it, is beyond me.

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Originally posted by DougD

IMHO, the contemporary "old time" music that I think is sometimes being referenced in this thread, has little or nothing in common with the music of the "golden era," in terms of repertoire, style, or cultural or social context or function, so it can't be a "snapshot" of something antique. Thats not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is. Music evolves, and why anyone cares if what they consider "old time" music is thriving in DC or Long Island, or struggle to define it, is beyond me.

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LOL. Yes. 

I guess at some point I'm being dragged up to the hills of Vermont...lol...so...we'll see what's popular up in their neck of the woods. I can't imagine my ever going up there that far away...but I guess I can either stay here, where I don't know ANYBODY at all and have nothing to hang around here for, or go up there where I also don't know anybody at all and have nothing to hang around there for...since all of my past places I called home have been destroyed by one manner or another. Will I have to learn to play and speak Canadian up there???? Lol...it'll be four years or so, so I guess I better start learnin' whatever it is I oughta know. It'll be scary for me...but...hopefully there might be some homespun jammers somewhere I could connect with. Ain't none here...lol...maybe up there. I'll let ya know if I have to hurry and learn Canadian fiddle tunes.  I don't think i've ever sat in a car that long, and I don't get inside airplanes.  I can't sleep in a strange place, especially if it smells that awful motel smell all over everything, and I can't eat in restaurants...so I'll pack a mask, sleeping bag, and lots of pbj sandwiches and coffee.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

As to capoing...yeah, really if you get above the 2nd fret it sounds like your instrument has been huffing the party balloons...lol. That can be an issue.

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In that case, there is something very wrong with that banjo. Capo 4 should still sound good, if not, a good set up or a better banjo seem to be in order.

Set up is an art, similar to playing the instrument.... 

Tony, earlier in the thread you reported on the healthy old time music scenein Mt. View. Its also thriving around here, with young and old. A few examples:
cowancreekmusic.org/ I guess time would b short for this one.
mecc.edu/mountain-music-school/
These schools are open to all ages - the young and the young at heart. Many of the kids who attend do so on scholarship, and can use donated instruments to learn on. Many probably qualify for subsidized meals at school, and that can be hard to provide during the summer, so lunches from the local pizza place or Subway are welcome (and were for me too when I was there). It was always fun to watch the students in informal jams after lunch, playing whatever came into their heads.

Around this region many schools and community organizations host the "JAM" (Junior Appalachian Musicians) programs:
jamkids.org/

Programs can be anywhere, though. Years ago there was a place on Long Island called "The Guitar Workshop" that provided lessons and general exposure to traditional music. Here's a recollection of what it meant to some:
banjohangout.org/archive/219045

Lastly, for those struggling to define "Old Time Music," this Wikipedia article does a pretty good job:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-time_music

I forgot to attach this snapshot I took from the sound booth one year. This is only part of the group.

If something is wrong with my banjo, it was wrong with all the banjos I've ever had, and all the guitars I've had in the past 62 years...lol. Maybe it's just a matter of opinion...I use capos...I 've had to use them at times, plenty of times, but to me...they make an instrument sound funny. I should add I use them to this day...often in multi track recordings I think it sounds pretty cool to pick a tune in whatever key, then pick along either a harmony or just the same chords but different shapes by capoing up...I think the two together make a neat sound...but seriously, guitars don't sound as good capoed up and neither do banjos, just in my own opinion...the higher up you capo, the more helium you hear...lol.

i have a big old dreadnought guitar i like to capo up high to get a mid range more than a bassy boom on some songs.

Peggy, are you just commenting that you think capos pitch everything too high for your tastes? That's fair.

Every instrument I own can play all up and down the neck, and a capo on my acoustic at the 5th fret is wonderful for picking tunes in F out of the C position. Never in my life have I thought "helium sound" hearing things pitched higher except the Munchkins in Wizard of Oz lol and sometime super fast Irish reels sound like a sped up recording from 33 to 45 rpm to me.

I eat a lot of foods that my friends don't like; I get how we all have different tastes.

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Peggy, are you just commenting that you think capos pitch everything too high for your tastes? That's fair.

Every instrument I own can play all up and down the neck, and a capo on my acoustic at the 5th fret is wonderful for picking tunes in F out of the C position. Never in my life have I thought "helium sound" hearing things pitched higher except the Munchkins in Wizard of Oz lol and sometime super fast Irish reels sound like a sped up recording from 33 to 45 rpm to me.

I eat a lot of foods that my friends don't like; I get how we all have different tastes.

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Right or wrong - I'm guilty of trying to get the same "sound" recorded on the version of whatever I want to learn. If they used a capo - I'll use a capo. If they didn't, I usually won't (within reason). If it requires going "too high" up the fret board for my voice - I'll pass, and just enjoy listening to the recording. 

Guess I'm the only one that equates capo with cheating, in fact we call them cheetahs, in my circles. There ain't a single banjo or guitar player that could play out of Bb without one (including me!).

But to use one effectively you should try the adjustable tension ones, Tony. A little tighter or looser has an effect on the overall timbre, aside from making sure the strings stay in concert pitch. Might get some of that helium out of your banjo.

Oh gosh am I supposed to defend my thesis here...lol? Ok...to me, playing in C or anything in the 5th or whatever fret up the neck with a capo sounds kind of strange...I said helium as a joke, so I won't defend that it actually sounds like one's guitar or banjo actually did huff a party balloon...I mean, that's not entirely accurate to say. Mine only breathe music, not helium. But it's just my opinion. Yeah we always called capos cheaters and we used a pencil with a rubber band holding it tight to the neck while I was growing up...and that was a cheater. Now I have all kinds of capos and yes I use the doggone cheaters quite a bit, as I said before...either for singing in a comfortable key or as I said above catching harmonies or just the cool sounds of chords in different shapes to go along with whatever I'm picking without the cheater in doing a multi track recording. I've used them my whole life, from pencil and rubber band to fairly fancy and tight capos...they are very useful. But to me, to my ear, they don't sound nearly as good as a bare necked guitar or banjo playing those same shapes. Just an opinion...helium just a joking way of humoring myself to say it in a way that makes me laugh. That's it. I don't need to defend it...it's not any source of accurate proclamation or anything...just sayin' I use capos, they are useful, but they mess with the beautiful sounds of guitars and banjos. They should not be legal!!! Lol...just another joke...I'm not a comedian, as you may notice...lol. And it's been a tough day for me, so I'm struggling to just be human...thus, the horrible comedic attempts...but...there ya go...my opinion...don't worry, I won't charge anything for it...totally free...calorie free/fat free...just free!

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Originally posted by DougD

IMHO, the contemporary "old time" music that I think is sometimes being referenced in this thread, has little or nothing in common with the music of the "golden era," in terms of repertoire, style, or cultural or social context or function, so it can't be a "snapshot" of something antique. Thats not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is. Music evolves, and why anyone cares if what they consider "old time" music is thriving in DC or Long Island, or struggle to define it, is beyond me.

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This perplexes me. I notice that when videos of young players are posted here, they either don't get any attention or those that bother to comment on them are snarky. There's a lot of complaining that "that isn't Old Time" if a player doesn't have a certain sound or doesn't adhere to a specific style of performance for a tune. It baffles me then that the above comment is so cavalier about trying to come up with a consistent identity for the music. There are so many comments about what isn't Old Time but very few about what is.

I think that there are a few elephants in the room with Old Time that make it harder to engage with younger audiences in this era. Yes, there are some little pockets of interest, but the majority of violin players have never even heard of Old Time. I would say that even without ever having played it, just about everyone has some idea of Celtic music or Bluegrass.

When I listen to interviews with some of the people who recorded the music that's considered canon, I hear a very different attitude from the people who learned from them and have now reached the same age. Many of those "old timers" were thrilled to have younger players take an interest in the music they loved and often praised the new players for what they saw as both a continuation of the life of the music and potentially an improvement in its performance. Of course some were cantankerous crones, but so many of them were extremely encouraging, perhaps because they hoped that by praising the young players so much it would instill the desire to carry the torch and eventually pass it on in the same manner.

Unfortunately, I don't see that torch being passed very well frequently. I don't know what caused it exactly, but somewhere a lot of people who learned from such kind and humble teachers began to fester. Instead of being encouraging and supportive of new players, they have chosen to denigrate the young players who show an interest in the music much in the way that they themselves did in their youth.

I've seen several videos posted here by members who were impressed by young players, and those players were invariably torn apart for being inauthentic or for learning how to play from the "wrong" sources for the genre, even in spite of some of those players gaining acclaim by winning fiddling competitions or establishing successful careers for themselves. There's a certain resentment at the success of younger players from those who have not enjoyed as much acclaim themselves, and it colors all the comments and turns away younger readers.

I think on some level the inability to define the genre and to provide something for the future is willful and deliberate, and it's a shame. If Old Time disappears, the world will go on, but I often think about the future and wonder what will happen if eventually someone takes a scholarly interest. In the Middle Ages, scholars were fascinated by the Greek modes and tried to revive them and understand the music of the day as much as possible without any sheet music for reference. In the end, the modes formed the basis for the music of the day, but as it turns out, the understanding of the Greek modes was flawed, and ultimately, while the system that was put together was excellent and allowed for new music to flourish, no one ended up really knowing how the Greek modes worked and it remains somewhat mysterious. The same may happen with Old Time--there are plenty of contradictory accounts of it but there's also a slavish devotion to aural learning, so once the sources die, the true meaning (if there is one after all) will be lost and anyone who tries to make sense of it will have to wade through a mountain of gibberish to try to figure it out.

If your preference is to let it die out (if so, fair enough), then there's no point in attacking youngsters for taking old tunes and finding new ways to express them or for learning from different sources that are willing to provide information on how to play. 

The idea of 'cheating' in music performance is odd.  I use capo as tool for the sound s I want, not to cover my limitations. When I played in bluegrass bands I sometimes played out of Bb or F without a capo for the sound I wanted... Bb can be really nice with a lot of open strings for basic melodies. I'd even play in G with E shapes capoed up to G for some songs for the flavor E shapes give  (especially when there's another guitar player) Textures and tones are fun to play with.

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Originally posted by wrench13

Guess I'm the only one that equates capo with cheating, in fact we call them cheetahs, in my circles. There ain't a single banjo or guitar player that could play out of Bb without one (including me!).

But to use one effectively you should try the adjustable tension ones, Tony. A little tighter or looser has an effect on the overall timbre, aside from making sure the strings stay in concert pitch. Might get some of that helium out of your banjo.

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hmmmm....   "Tony"?  I'm not sure what I said that made you recommend that I (Tony) should use adjustable capos?   Not that it really matters that much - not to me. Adjustable tension - or spring, or elastic - I've used them all. To use one or not.  I don't have any strong opinions about what other people do with any of that. But I do have personal preferences...  All of mine are adjustable - and I'll use them when it makes sense to me. I've never considered it cheating. Well ---- I have been guilty of smiling a bit when I see a mandolin with a capo.    but - if they don't mind doing that... then why would they care about what I think? They are still playing music / hopefully having fun. I'd bet that sooner or later they'll stop, but 'til then:  "Get on it, son!"

Technically speaking, adjusting tension (tighter) on a capo will only drive the string further to the finger board. That should not be necessary if the instrument is setup correctly. There only needs to be enough downward pressure to settle the string at the top of the fret (clean contact) to limit the string vibrations between the fret and saddle. Any more tension will cause the tension to increase and will raise the string vibration making it go sharper .Again - if the instrument is setup correctly, then the more downward pressure you create to drive the sting towards the fret board - (tightening the adjustable capo) the more you will adversely effect the intonation (make the string pitch sharper).  

If more tension is needed in the capo adjustment to insure all the strings are  in full contact with the frets, perhaps the adjustable capo needs to be adjusted - to compensate for the different string thicknesses so it isn't pressing them down "evenly". Evenly meaning the thickest string will make contact before the thinnest string will. And (conceivably) by the time the downward adjustable capo brings all the strings into contact with the fret, the thickest string will be sharp from too much tension / pressure - if the capo "bar" pressing on the stings is exactly parallel with the fret "bar". I find that I usually have problems with the E and A strings being just a tad bit sharp with the capo - for that reason (imo).

And I would submit that none of this will have any effect on the timbre of the instrument - at all.  ...but then maybe I'm wrong.   (wouldn't be the first time)

this is a lot of words about capos.

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Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

this is a lot of words about capos.

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...is that good?  

i don't know... i mean the whole discussion on capos... lots of words about capos

Gee whiz I guess capos is a hot controversial mess like double thumbing or Nashville shuffling...lol. I didn't call it "cheating." I grew up hearing folks with pencils and rubber bands so that somebody could sing it in Fsharp or Bflat or some other horrible key to play guitar in laughingly call it a "cheater." They weren't saying they were cheating, but it beats the daylights right outta using big ol' closed up barre chords in weird places and maneuvering fingerpicking around all of that. Of course, now I guess somebody will jump all over my trashing of barre chords...I love barre chords, for the record...just remember I said that when it comes down to election day...lol...but only when they work out. And if somebody comes along and says I gotta sing this one in Eflat...I'm gonna slap on the capo to make my life easy...lol.

THREAD DRIFT ALERT!

Peggy and Bruno - I think you're talking about two different things. Here's an example of what I think Bruno has in mind, "White House Blues," with Rudy Lyle capoed up five frets: youtu.be/EYWPntu8640?feature=shared Its exciting and kind of flashy, but not something I would listen to too much, or try myself. I think the speed and pitch make Peggy nervous.
I think this is generally the kind of banjo playing Peggy is thinking of:
youtu.be/h9JPp6HP7uw?feature=shared It doesn't need to be capoed, and wouldn't sound right if it were.
Interesting that both of these songs are in the same key (C) and played on the same style of banjo (Gibson Mastertone). Just shows how different music can sound from different artists.

A couple more things: I made that recording of Morgan Sexton, using the most accurate microphones I own, so depending on how you're listening, that's pretty close to how he actually sounded. Due to some earlier technical problems not involving me, we recorded the entire "Rock Dust" LP in one afternoon. Most or all of that earlier LP was included on his "Shady Grove" CD, with some additional material I didn't record.
In my days playing guitar with Highwoods I never used a capo, but we only played in D,A,G and C. Not so much for tone, but the D and A chords give more possibilities in the bass than using a capo. I can play in any key, but if someone wanted a guitar lead for "Wildwood Flower" in Eb, I'd probably reach for the pencil and rubber bands. Same with banjo - I can play in any key, but it might not sound like Earl Scruggs (or even Don Reno).
PS - Highwoods sets were typically 45 minutes to an hour long, during which we would usually play in three keys (sometimes two or four). But the keys were arranged to minimize retuning the banjo, either just retuning one or two strings OR adding the capo. We might start in D, then go to A and then to G, or G - C- D, but never from C to A, or G to D etc.
We also never cross tuned the fiddles. I asked Walt about that years later and he said "You know how long it takes to retune one fiddle. Can you imagine how long it would take to retune two?" Our shows were meant to be entertaining, not boring.

You should see when someone uses the "C word" on the Mandolin Cafe.
Lol! Good for 14 pages!