Rich, Interesting post. However, I was confused by your last sentence since the proceeding paragraphs talked about the power of the classics. So, how might old time have that kind of impact on people?

I'm reminded of when I went searching for a piano forum. Everyone there knew there were exactly two types of music: Classical and Jazz.
Nobody could relate to playing another genre of music or playing by ear. It was like a world that didn't exist. Reminds me of an Amazonian tribe that had never been across the river. They literally could not see the people on the other side, because to them, the other side did not exist.

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

As DougD and groundhogpeggy imply above, the banjo doesn't really lend itself to being played in a variety of keys. It's something that, at least in my opinion, makes it considerably less flexible when you bring it to a jam or an organized live music session. If the jam leader or somebody else decides to play a tune in C when the last few tunes were played in A, you're pretty much out of luck unless you're a wiz at quickly re-tuning your axe. It's like a 'ukulele. You might as well put the instrument aside and amble to the bar.

Things become even more confounding when a fellow jammer insists everybody play in Bb...probably because it's the only key he/she can sing in.

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I had a friend who played drop thumb banjer. He re-tuned for every key. However, I play Scruggs style. I simply snap on a capo very much like a guitar. I can play in Hb. I tune down the 5th string instead of figuring what to do. So 1st and 5th are unison, or a harmony note to the root. It's no big deal. 

Steve, just curious. What do you do for the key of Eb, or don't you encounter that very often?

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Originally posted by wrench13

I personally think most music programs fail because they teach music kids have absolutely no interest in.

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For old time to survive it needs to have that kind of impact on people. 

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It does in some places. I visit Mt. View,AR - several times a year. The community is very active with kids in grade school and high school. Bluegrass has an edge, but old time is represented very well. I've been very pleased and surprised at the number of kids involved and how well they play and perform.  Encouraging. I won't go into details, but I thought it was worth mentioning.  

I think the biggest part of that has to do with the rural and remote culture of a small town. All the "grown -ups" are playing music - live music everywhere. Easy to access and get involved. They are growing up with it all around them. "All of them?"  No, of course not - but the percentage of involved is probably among the highest anywhere.

I experienced the same in Alaska.  I promoted an annual event in Anchorage - "Springtime Bluegrass Jubilee" and always featured a "high school" band as an opening act. 

In Memphis area?  ...somewhat at one time, not so much any more - I don't see any involvement BG or OT. ...sad. 

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Originally posted by DougD

Steve, just curious. What do you do for the key of Eb, or don't you encounter that very often?

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Sometimes you just have to accommodate a vocalist that only seems to want to sing in that key. I've also sometimes found myself at jams where they've tuned their instruments to that or some other odd ball...okay, let's charitably call it unusual...pitch. In any case, if I truly want to play with 'em I simply re-tune my fiddle up a half-step.  If you've got a tail piece with fine tuners it's not that difficult. It doesn't hurt that standard tuning is all fifths, an interval that the ear easily recognizes.

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Originally posted by DougD

Steve, just curious. What do you do for the key of Eb, or don't you encounter that very often?

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Eb, the 4 & 5 are Ab and Bb. (Had to check my circle diagram) I assume the question was about banjer? You can't capo at 2 because you need the Ab. I might still use the D formation up 2 frets as if one had a capo on 2 (2nd fret) for the root. 4&5 are bar chords. Never dug any deeper, if you needed a ii (minor2) or a vi ( minor 6) for a turn around. 

Because a fiddle is crippled to a 2 note chord, it's so much easier. I would just play along. We had a gal that called a tune that went from F to either Fb or F#, I can't remember. But I just slid into it.  The big problem was she really couldn't sing in Fb like she claimed.  I wasn't going to call her on it. (Explain where the Fb is on a piano  :) )

Steve, yes I was asking about banjo. Putting on a capo and using G tuning works pretty well up to B, and maybe C, but beyond that you lose a lot. I was curious if you ever used other tunings than "G". I'm no expert, but I think Earl Scruggs played in G tuning, C tuning, and sometimes D. If I needed to play in Eb, I'd use "C" tuning, capo at 3.
I had a funny experience like this when I was music director for a theater show about the Carter Family. The finale was something like "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" in C. The banjo player capoed up 5 and wailed away in G tuning. The problem was that put the banjo right on top of the female voices and just wiped them out. I asked him if he would use C tuning, and he just wouldn't do it. This went on for several days, and I thought he was just being lazy or defiant (unlike him on both counts). Finally a mutual friend intervened and told me (privately) that he just didn't know how. So I showed him, and it solved the problem. I was surprised a decent banjo player wouldn't know "C" tuning, and wondered if you ever used it.
Earl played some great stuff that way.

Because guitar is not my main instrument and I learned banjer first, it made sense to drop the fine string on a guitar to a D. I drop the fat E down only if I'm playing in D. Later I find out about Kieth Richards and a host of others use open G tuning.
It drives the jam crazy trying to read my left hand. Oh well. Then one old friend asks if I've tried open E? I guess it's prevalent for slide guitar? Anyway I went home and tried it. It sounds nice, but I use a slide in open G. I know where stuff is in open G. You'd think with all the guitars I own I was a guitar player lol. I just got a second fiddle tuned to DGCF for Cajun, only recently. ADAD, or AEAE tuning feels like it robs me of stuff. I'm not an OT fiddler either.

This makes it look like I'm a fingerpicking star but we know better. This has no bass line, like it's supposed to. 

Bluebirds Singing for Me

Doug,

I know Earl did some fingerpicking guitar. Like, You are My Flower. Do you know if he used standard tuning or what?

Steve, AFAIK, Earl Scruggs always played guitar in standard tuning, often with a capo. Fortunately there's lots of video of Flatt and Scruggs from their TV show on YouTube. Here's Earl playing "You Are My Flower" with Maybelle Carter. He's playing in C position, but capoed all the way up to the 7th fret, so it sounds in G. Maybelle did a similar thing on some of the Carter Family records. The little autoharp Sara played in the early days could only play in C and F. Maybelle's guitar style really only works in C position, so for F she capoed up 5 frets to be in F. There are photos of her doing this. On songs in G Sara played second guitar.
youtu.be/PA6jWj0bTi8?feature=shared

Here's Earl playing a couple numbers in C tuning. I really like that sound. youtu.be/dKv-m0q1S9U?feature=shared

And here's a bonus clip that popped up of Earl and his sons playing with the Byrds, complete with Clarence White with his B bender Telecaster:
youtu.be/sTHK-97Y53Y?feature=shared

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Rich, Interesting post. However, I was confused by your last sentence since the proceeding paragraphs talked about the power of the classics. So, how might old time have that kind of impact on people?

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To me it seems that Old Time is in the midst of an identity crisis. Perhaps no one has ever been able to decide exactly what it is, as definitions have varied so much. There's the "old-timey mountain music" version, which is more of a vaudeville-style performative act that is a somwehat tongue-in-cheek look at thr music of the "old-timers" from up in the mountains, played and recorded by players who grew up around it but took it on the road and gave it a new coat of paint to present to a wider audience, much as George Gershwin took the jazz music from the streets and gave it a polish to present to the classical world. 
 

There's the "historical approach" to playing tunes, along the lines of the HIP movement in early music, where great care is taken to study and learn tunes in their original settings. Players in this faction like to make clear whose tune is being played and will often have plenty of information on the backstory of a tune, as well as a knowledge of multiple variants by other colleagues, with one being the definitive version. This approach focuses more on each tune itself in order to preserve it in amber for the future, as the only other evidence are some pretty terrible field recordings that only the most ardent admirers of Old Time can stomach. 
 

Then there's the "festival/competition style" that focuses more on adapting the standard tunes to make them more technically difficult and more exciting for players. This often includes working more complicated bowing patterns, drones, double stops, shifts, pizzicato playing, or faster tempi into the music to excite the audience and judges. This might be compared to the development of violin literature, where some composers sought to outdo each other in writing new concerti by making them more and more technically difficult. Once they reached the limits of technique, they moved in a different direction, stretching the limits of tonality instead. 
 

Then there's the "jam/workshop style," which is different again in that it seems to focus more on making tunes accessible to players, usually with much simpler versions of tunes and drastically slower tempi to allow for players to learn tunes on the spot. The majority of the players in this group are less inclined to want any harmony, intricate bowing, or "fancy licks" added to the tunes. Some of the historically interested players show up to these jams, but this can lead to frustration, as other players can become tired of hearing a story before playing every tune and having to keep track of whose version of each tune is being played, while the historical players get frustrated when their tunes are being altered. I played in a jam last year where a banjo player wanted everyone to play a tune he led note for note and turned it into a lesson where he spent a good 20 minutes asking everyone to play each bar back to him so he could correct any differences. If anyone missed a note he stopped the playing to correct the missed note and started the tune over. While everyone chose to politely sit through the tune, it was obvious to everyone (expert the banjo player leading) that it was not what anyone wanted to be doing that day. Jams are more fun for the participants, but they can often be dull for audiences.  The habit of picking a key and having everyone suggest whatever tunes in that key come to mind means  that there is no arc connecting the tunes in the way that one might find at a performance or in a recording. 
 

Finally (at least, those are all the distinctions I've come up with), there's the "new-age style," which is an attempt to modify tunes from other eras to be relevant to modern sensibilities. This involves a lot of blending of styles, with terms like "fusion" and "crossover" cropping up frequently. It will sometimes be referred to as "roots music," although what is played is actually more of a modern interpretation rather than a careful recreation of original music. This type makes it harder to distinguish between styles of fiddling and seems to put more of an emphasis on the player as an artistic innovator than it does on the music.

With all these competing factions, it's no wonder that Old Time is struggling to find a clear place in the public's awareness. Classical music is an umbrella term that is almost meaningless when examined closely, given the expanse of music it encompasses, yet audiences seem to have no trouble identifying it. The same may be said of jazz or country. But Old Time is different. It predates Bluegrass, a genre that's easier to identify. Players bristle at the idea of being grouped with Bluegrass or Country or even Celtic Fiddling, which has much closer ties. In that sense, Old Time is an island of its own, but it's too small for most boats to see when passing by. 
 

If I had to choose, I think I'd pick the first  style as the definitive Old Time and let everything else be considered simply as fiddling. It would make Old Time an even smaller niche than it is already, but I really believe the only way to preserve anything is to have a sense for what should be preserved first.

I think the umbrella term "fiddling" needs to be used more to encompass the variety of styles. If Old Time could be put into a clearer focus, I believe it might actually have a better chance of being championed by a younger audience, as my experience of younger players is that they enjoy niches. Baroque music used to be a tiny corner in the classical world,  but it has enjoyed a renaissance in the last few decades as it has become more clearly defined. In its early days of rediscovery, it was a bit more like a bunch of jam sessions where players showed up to try to figure out how to play instruments about which they knew very little and played the music without knowing very much about how it was intended to be played. It was fun for the participants but not for the listeners. That all changed with a clearer understanding and the willingness of good players to seek it out.

In the end, pessimistic as it may sound, I'd prefer to let the genre die out in fossilized form rather than have it disappear by being pulled apart to the point where it's unrecognizable. At least that way, the fossil will remain in the soil for future generations to rediscover and appreciate. 

I always think of anything like Old Time, old fiddle tunes, old banjo tunes, old ballads, old hymns, etc., as folk music, and that's what I've called it most of my life, at least beginning at the point where I needed a name for what I was playing...lol. I realize folk, though, to lots of people, means Peter Paul and Mary (they did some actual folk too, though) or sixties anti-war songs, labor vs union songs, etc. I think they would fit into what I think of as folk, although they are just a small part of the whole thing. Woodie Guthrie would fit in the same way. So...pretty much it's just impossible to tell somebody with one word what kind of music you play...either they won't have any idea what you could mean, or they might think of some portion of folk music that doesn't even come close to what you play...and if you say Old Time...I'd guess people who don't play it haven't heard the term at all. Impossible to talk about. It's as bad as bum-diddy, or tater shuffling...misleading terms which seem to not be inclusive enough and/or descriptive enough. MIght as well give up and tell ''m you play heavy metal...lol.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Rich, Interesting post. However, I was confused by your last sentence since the proceeding paragraphs talked about the power of the classics. So, how might old time have that kind of impact on people?

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To me it seems that Old Time is in the midst of an identity crisis. Perhaps no one has ever been able to decide exactly what it is, as definitions have varied so much...

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You've said a lot. In the end, preferring the fossilized version of Old Time makes a certain sense. Modern fiddle playing descends from an amalgamation of styles caught in an historical time in America. The predecessors of Old Time are accepted styles in their own right, as is the offshoot bluegrass, and its modern sub-genres.  I am no preservationist, but I appreciate those who are. For instance I appreciate the preservation of the essential elements of bluegrass from the 50s and 60s, and generally prefer listing to that, or current bands that honor that, over more recent iterations. To find the music I myself like to play, which I casually call old time,  I listen to some old recordings, but I prefer hearing live and well recorded versions of old tunes, often by folks younger than me. 

If Old Time is to be considered a closed form, what should fiddle players in general call the music we play and listen to? In the future what we are doing now may be defined and preserved as an historical style. Meanwhile, it's just Fiddle Tunes, and we needn't be self-conscious about defining it or containing it. It is acoustic, mostly fiddle and banjo oriented, historically American Old Time based, regionally diversified over time, and currently unified by modern audio-visual technology, and aided by modern transportation systems that allows players to mix more easily than before.

I've probably mentioned this a few times during my time at this site, but I've pretty much stopped trying to pigeonhole various tunes and performance of those tunes into specific genres. Sure, it's fun but it's far from crucial to determine where a specific tune or performance of said tune might fit in the overall scheme of things. Putting it another way, don't be afraid of hyphens. Let 'em proliferate! We're talking music here. Not science.

Oh yeah, and something else. As a once-upon-a-time classical records clerk at several major record stores in L.A. (yeah, they were all branches of Tower Records), I've learned how complicated sorting out genres can be. The surgery can lead to fistfights...

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Oh yeah, and something else. As a once-upon-a-time classical records clerk at several major record stores in L.A. (yeah, they were all branches of Tower Records), I've learned how complicated sorting out genres can be. The surgery can lead to fistfights...

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Naming, sorting, and preserving genres, what does it have to do with the music itself? If we fail at those things, so what? What do categories do besides help marketing (and cause fistfights)?

The term "Old Time Music" was one of several invented by record companies in the 1920's to describe and market a type of music they'd started recording, others being "Old Familiar Tunes" and "Songs of Hill and Home," or maybe it was "Hill and Range." In any case it suggested a connection with times gone by, as opposed to "modern" pop or "hot jazz," similar to "Old time camp meeting," "Old Time singing school," and many other usages. It included many kinds of ensembles, instrumentation, and styles, many of which might not be considered "old time" today.
It may not have much to do with the music itself, but marketing is not a trivial thing (from my perspective). Fifty years ago our band made three LP albums for Rounder, who were just starting out. Distribution was spotty, but they were trying, and as we travelled, if we had time we might visit a local record store to see if we were there. The problem was where to look. Terms like "Americana" and "Roots" music hadn't been invented yet, and there was never a slot for "Old Time." If we were lucky we might be under "Folk" or "Bluegrass." I think its easier for artists today.
BTW although we described our band as "old time," we really thought of ourselves as traditional country music performers.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

Oh yeah, and something else. As a once-upon-a-time classical records clerk at several major record stores in L.A. (yeah, they were all branches of Tower Records), I've learned how complicated sorting out genres can be. The surgery can lead to fistfights...

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Naming, sorting, and preserving genres, what does it have to do with the music itself? If we fail at those things, so what? What do categories do besides help marketing (and cause fistfights)?

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I think it comes down to being able to preserve something. If it can be classified and preserved it can survive. If it's amorphous and unidentifiable, it will never have an identity and will never be possible to preserve. In order to say that music is of a certain type, there has to be some basic rubric for identifying it, so that one can tell when the music is different enough to be something else. Influences and blends can still happen just as much, but then it's easier to recognize them as such. Granted, Old Time is itself a blend of influences, but my argument is that it represents a sort of snapshot taken at one time in history.  If we don't care about identifying it, I think it's at higher risk of disappearing. 
 

To Peggy's comment, I would say that I don't use the term Folk Music much because it has lost just about all its meaning when used to describe American music. If you mention a different country in relation to folk music, the description is much clearer and it refers to music in common traditional cultural usage among inhabitants of an area. In the U.S., though, its meaning has been stretched so much that it has lost any sense of continuity. Stephen Foster music is folk music, but then hippie protest songs are considered folk, and so are brand new songs written by performers who simply play unaccompanied. I don't want to include Old Time in that category because it further obfuscates its identity. 

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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I think it comes down to being able to preserve something. If it can be classified and preserved it can survive. 

I agree with that.

The act of preserving something/anything, by it's own definition kills it.

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

The act of preserving something/anything, by it's own definition kills it.

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No, by definition preservation is the act of keeping something from changing OR keeping it alive. If it's something like a corpse, it's preventing it from rotting away as it would otherwise, but if it's a tradition, it's keeping the activity alive. Hence societies that exist for the preservation of music or philosophies; they're for continuing the life of the subject without interruption, not killing it.

Lack of preservatives leads to quicker demise, and that's the point here.

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

The act of preserving something/anything, by it's own definition kills it.

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I don't know what you mean by "by its own definition". A kind of music is defined by certain characteristics, not "by its own definition". In the natural world, take trees. We define some as maple, some as spruce. It's handy to know one from the other. Those distinctions are made by evolution and DNA. Human cultural distinctions are not protected genetically that way. Instead, we devise classification systems to preserve information and make distinctions. Agreeing on a definition for "Old Time music" doesn't kill anything. If anything, as Rich said, it might help protect it.

It's not like we're taking about putting the tunes into jars of something like salt and sealing the jars to make sauertunes lol

To be sure, let a thousand flowers bloom, but if there aren't some arbitrary rules, genres, distinguishing characteristics, etc. laid on top of the mess to help guide us through the maze, we'd never be able to locate the stuff that aesthetically lights our fires. Take it from a guy who toiled for several years at a Tower Records. It truly helped to not keep the Beatles records and Beethoven records in the same bin.