Wait, what are you saying, there were 1500 online at BHO but only 51 here? I am probably logged on over there skewing the numbers a little.

I have no idea why so many peeps loves the banjer.
But, only yesterday I saw over 100 fiddle lovers on line and only two were members.
When I found FHO I registered right away, I was eager to participate/contribute to discussions.

Answer easy! Its much harder to play fiddle then banjo! Hence less members on here. But you are right! Seems like there is 20 members, at most, keeping this board alive.

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I was just over at Banjer Hangout. They have 1500 banjerlovers online.
We only have 51 Fiddle lovers. What gives?

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Total membership
FHO 19,880
BHO 136, 283
Does this explain it for you?

Banjo seems to be meant for tinkering. You can take the whole thing apart without needing much in the way of special tools, suppliers of all needed parts are abundant....

Fiddle is not for tinkerers for the most part, special tools and knowledge are needed to (God forbid) disassemble....

Different beasts. How many guitar players in flatpickers hangout? Not even as many accounts as FHO over there.

I think there are other sites where guitar players go to discuss the merits of various woods, neck widths, scale lengths, strings, etc. In depth.

I don’t pretend to have the answer, but I would venture a guess that it has to do with the demographics. Old time fiddle appeals to people of a certain age, but not quite as much to younger generations. Discussion forums are already considered an “old people thing,” so obscure ones tend to be quite limited. The banjo is easier for a lot of people to pick up casually, and it had a bit of a resurgence in popularity among millennials because Steve Martin would play at shows. The banjo is a popular hipster instrument because it looks at home with flannel shirts and trucker hats.

I think part of the issue is that fiddling isn’t often taken seriously. Forums are not really a place for “hanging out” so much as they are a place to collect information and ask questions. The few younger people who pay any attention to forums related to the violin are mostly looking elsewhere. If they’re casual players they tend to use Reddit more because that forum is more popular. If they’re serious but not into old time and bluegrass, Maestronet and Violinist.com have what they need.

I like the forum and I don’t think it’s at all unwelcoming to potential members, but unfortunately I suspect that it just isn’t very appealing to a lot of players.

I do think that there are a lot of people who read without becoming members. I’ve communicated with a fair number of self-titled “lurkers” over the last few years. So the viewership may be a little higher than it looks. That doesn’t solve the problem of low participation. Nor does the demographic aging and disappearing.

Another thought that occurs to me is that people are societally becoming less musical. While some schools still have music programs that get kids playing instruments, less of them are playing into adulthood. Participatory musical events are different now because there aren’t as many players to show up for them. There is interest in the music, but it’s more in listening to it or dancing to it than in playing it.

As Rich Maxham implies, I've discovered that, in the vast musical scheme of things, OT and other folk fiddling styles & genres are just tiny little specs in the landscape. Hey, I came upon the genre only because, after I impulsively bought a violin, I happened to respond to a David Bragger ad in an underground newspaper. And to be sure, I'm happy as heck about it. Every so often, I wonder what genre of violin player I'd have been if I had stuck to the boring-as-heck violin instructor I came upon at a local violin store. Would I even still be playing the violin?

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Another thought that occurs to me is that people are societally becoming less musical. While some schools still have music programs that get kids playing instruments, less of them are playing into adulthood. Participatory musical events are different now because there aren’t as many players to show up for them. There is interest in the music, but it’s more in listening to it or dancing to it than in playing it.

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There seems to be as much interest in music overall among young people as ever, but the difference now is how many of them only want to play with computers. In schools It's easier and cheaper to interest kids in music software than in real instruments. After school, back in the day, most of us were woodshedding in the basement. Kids now are playing with smart electronics.  When a keyboard is part of the interface at least keyboard skills are developed. Otherwise, kids are mostly playing with electronic toys, distractions that didn't exist until recently. It's a real shame. The physicality of playing any instrument is a deep part of its charm, but it has to be discovered. 

How can an appreciation of playing physical instruments be passed on to future generations? A few still get it, but times are trending away from that. Young musicians are still improving the music scene professionally, but there is a growing gap between those players and everyday people. Fewer everyday people are choosing fiddles and banjos over gadgets.

quote:

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Originally posted by carlb

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I was just over at Banjer Hangout. They have 1500 banjerlovers online.
We only have 51 Fiddle lovers. What gives?

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Total membership
FHO 19,880
BHO 136, 283
Does this explain it for you?

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Yes. Yes it does.

When my 3 kids were little, like < 6, I would give each a instrument, mostly horns or wood winds (my basement studio has all sorts of instruments in it), take the reeds off, and just let them sing into them , forming a 'kid' band. Of course they grew up hearing me practice and came to many daytime gigs. All 3 were in our school district's music program, one of the best in the country. But only 2, my sons, developed the fire to continue. My oldest, my daughter, was first chair sax in the jazz orchestra, and she could read anything, but once out of high school, she totally stopped.

Scroll forward a few decades. SHe has 2 kids. Both are in their music programs at school, but can already see that they are just playing cuz they have to. Youngest son now has a 9 month old girl, and he lets her play with his keyboard, drums, mandolins and I will bet she has a stronger musical interest later on. He has already picked out one of my fiddles to give to her once I pass on. So there's hope!

I personally think most music programs fail because they teach music kids have absolutely no interest in.

For me, the answer is that fiddle is hard. It’s difficult to learn -- gosh, it’s challenging for a beginner to make even one good sound! Learning progress is slow and it’s easy to become frustrated or discouraged. Learning to play fiddle well enough to enjoy it requires discipline, patience and good attitude. I know a number of people who play other instruments quite well, but tried and gave up on fiddle.

I came to the fiddle from mandolin. Anyone can play a nice G chord on mando immediately, no practice needed. The same goes for guitar, which has always been known and an easy instrument to play badly.

And I don’t think there is anything wrong with this forum. There are plenty of knowledgeable people here, all kinds of different perspectives, and I have learned a lot here. Additionally, those who have advanced skills are kind and helpful to those who are trying to catch up. I’m happy to be a (minor) part of this community.

Guitar is easy? Wish I'd known that when I was first twisting my fingers into knots and trying to keep those strings pressed down to the fretboard! Wonder how many people start out on guitar with the greatest intentions, and just can't get themselves past that stage, and give up. I've seen lots. To my mind, the only real difference with violin is that you have to work at it a lot longer to get beyond being a public nuisance, if you ever do (me, that is). Nobody has to hear you struggling with guitar, or playing "badly".

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Guitar is easy? Wish I'd known that when I was first twisting my fingers into knots and trying to keep those strings pressed down to the fretboard! Wonder how many people start out on guitar with the greatest intentions, and just can't get themselves past that stage, and give up. I've seen lots. To my mind, the only real difference with violin is that you have to work at it a lot longer to get beyond being a public nuisance, if you ever do (me, that is). Nobody has to hear you struggling with guitar, or playing "badly".

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For me, playing the guitar has always been easy as pie...at least when it comes to the basic stuff. You tune the guitar strings by twisting the knobs at the end of the neck until each string's pitch matches the pitches you find on your smart phone, pitch pipe or other device you hopefully bought along with the instrument. You find a book or internet page that shows you where to place your left hand fingers to get basic chords, scales or riffs. You use your right hand to strum (okay, flog) the strings. You suffer through the pain your left fingers feel while pressing down those strings. "Hey honey! Listen to me play the guitar!!!"

I dunno about you, but a ratio of 30 banjos to 1 fiddle would about kill me...

I made my first Banjo joke! Hahahaha...

I don't know why we are so few, but we could definitely fit into a room and jam together. That's the good part. Nobody likes those huge impersonal jams anyway, right!?

re: Guitar - I thought it was easy too...until people started talking about Dsus9 chords and barre chords up and down the neck...mindboggling stuff! I'm stuck on the basic chords and some fingerpicking, that's where I'm at! To me, fiddle/violin is way easier. Much fewer notes simultaneously...plus you don't even have to know what key you're in* :-D 

*Guitar player: "What key?"
Me: "I dunno...but it starts on G..." 
Guitar player: "Name?"
Me: "I dunno...Frank plays this a lot...y'know, Frank..."
I start playing, and he falls in...
So how the heck is guitar easier than fiddle, LOL LOL!! *
 

I learnt Cripple Creek on a banjer before I knew about chords. That was the ONLY thing i knew. That actually held me back some. But I distinctly remember hearing 'music' the first time I changed chords at the proper time. Then that transfers to any instrument you can make a chord with. Then you're considered dangerous until you can sing on pitch.

In my mind at least (and there ain't a whole lot in there), banjo is easy to play...easier than guitar or fiddle either one. I think if you get heavy into post-Scruggs styles, it gets tough at that point, but in my mind at least, claw hammer, finger picking or as they call it thumb lead or whatever you wanna call it on banjo, any of the types, they are pretty easy to play. Guitar not so much, because you have to learn chords, and on the guitar there's more to chords than there is on most banjo playing. I know, I know, there's some that go koo-koo for Coco-Chords on banjo and make it tough, but what I've seen, personally, you can get along very well on most banjo stuff without getting too involved in chords. Guitar, too is easy, though, compared with fiddle. I mean once you sit down and learn those chords you've pretty much got it. Although I do believe guitar thumb-picking or finger picking or whatever you wanna call it can get a little more complicated. Still...fiddle playing is hard to do...and, in my opinion only, to me, fiddle takes a lot more personal dedication and involvement than guitar styles that are commonly seen in the folk music world...that would explain to me why there are more folks hanging out on other types of forums. For me personally, I get frustrated or just really bored on banjo or guitar forums, myself...lol. Not sure why. I find fiddle discussions, or even non-fiddle discussing done by fiddlers, whose minds have been absolutely fiddled to death from just attempting to play the doggone thing, just more interesting. I prefer conversations in person of course, but seems that's too much to ask for in this day and age for a lot of us, but thankfully, there is FHO...lol. Thank y'all for being here!

I don't remember who, but an old banjo player, when asked about chords, replied: " Chords? Ain't no chords to a banjo - you just play it!"
I guess that's one reason there are so many banjo tunings.

5 string melodic banjo playing is intricate and extremely involved eg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5DTsdLCmLM

Around the turn of the last century there were lots of people, amateur and professional, who played "classical" banjo, on some of the instruments highly prized today.
When Peggy was trying to remember "The Entertainer" I looked to see what Scott Joplin pieces were recorded at the time. All I could find was "Maple Leaf," played on the banjo.
Not many people play this way today, but Walt Koken, one of our fiddlers, is also a great banjo player. Here he is playing "Maple Leaf" at the Brandywine Festival in 1976. No split screen or finger picks (quite a bit of foot tapping on the recording though).
slippery-hill.com/content/maple-leaf-rag-0

As DougD and groundhogpeggy imply above, the banjo doesn't really lend itself to being played in a variety of keys. It's something that, at least in my opinion, makes it considerably less flexible when you bring it to a jam or an organized live music session. If the jam leader or somebody else decides to play a tune in C when the last few tunes were played in A, you're pretty much out of luck unless you're a wiz at quickly re-tuning your axe. It's like a 'ukulele. You might as well put the instrument aside and amble to the bar.

Things become even more confounding when a fellow jammer insists everybody play in Bb...probably because it's the only key he/she can sing in.

I never could move my fingers (or brain) as fast as Walt, but here I am playing banjo on a song with some similar harmonic ideas.

Well played and cool recording

Edit: got me listening to Jimmy Rodgers now...nice

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Well played and cool recording

Edit: got me listening to Jimmy Rodgers now...nice

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I'm working on Jimmie Rodgers "Mississippi River Blues" / as recorded by the Nasnville Bluegrass Band. I love those songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dogheeIHBs

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Originally posted by wrench13

I personally think most music programs fail because they teach music kids have absolutely no interest in.

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I've been thinking about this comment since it was posted. I agree with the sentiment, but I think it's for very different reasons.

Music programs have tried for the last few decades to pull kids in by trying to be "cool" or in touch with what kids find musically interesting. This approach has been an abysmal disaster whenever it's been taken because a) the adults that choose the programming never pick anything that kids actually want and b) musical trends among kids change by the month as new things go viral. Even if you can manage to keep on top of the latest Netflix show themes or video game themes, not every kid will even be that desperate to play them on an instrument.

There is a performer on the electric violin who has made all kinds of appeals to kids by dressing up like a heavy metal guitarist, designing violins that look like electric guitars, and coming to schools to convicnce kids that they can be rock stars by playing 40-50 year old music that's not very popular with their peers. It would be nice if that approach was effective, but I haven't seen anyone getting excited about those shows or the ideas that go with it.

On the other hand, there are programs that teach the same old classics that have been in use for hundreds of years, using different methods but covering a lot of the same concepts and repertoire. There are method books designed by Mark O'Connor for instruction as an alternative to Suzuki, but every single teacher I've encountered who uses the books is ironically a Suzuki teacher who uses them as a supplement to give the kids some extra repertoire to expand their exposure to different styles.

I work with a lot of teachers in my area, many of whom grew up with the instruction programs in the schools here. Not only did they stick with playing all the way through grade school, they made playing the violin into a way of life. I'm regularly impressed by the way in which a lot of the young players delve deeply into repertoire. Many of them are completely versed in symphonic repertoire, and even if they haven't  played it in their orchestras, they recognize a symphony chosen at random in a moment.

The most popular violin channel on YouTube, TwoSet, has grown a massive global following, not by  trying to break into other genres, but by engaging in the passion and devotion that players have for classical literature and fine technique. They, both orchestral violinists, have interviewed some of the most popular violinists, played some of the world's most valuable violins, and grown their subscription base by agreeing to play a major violin concerto each time they reach another million subscribers. They've at times succumbed to internet culture, which seems to be the impetus for their hiatus, but now that they've returned after fans have begged ardently, they've come back with a mission to return to their original approach as lovers of violin music.

I think the schools that have stuck to the "same, boring old tunes" have fared much better than those that have tried to figure out what kids decades younger than themselves will care about. Even if the kids get to play the music they ask to play, will they still find that music engaging when they're 5 years older? Or 10 years older? Or 20 years? I met a Marine who had a theme from the first  violin section of a symphony tattooed on a bicep. He told me that those three or four bars were what made him choose music as his profession when he was a kid. For old time to survive it needs to have that kind of impact on people.