irfiddler - Posted - 05/19/2013:  13:33:44

To a large degree, I must be  a melodic improvisor.   Whether listening or playing,  I like to hear the melody of the  tune  - not to hear so many licks around the chords that the melody becomes largely unrecognizable.  It is wonderful  in a jazz  group or among advanced musicians to hear very  complicated riffs, but for the rest of us,we'd like to have a chance to join in at our level, wherever that is.

 I've never been satisfied with my improv skills - and  probably never will be, and at this point, I know I need to work on learning  more theory,  understanding chords, and learning to APPLY that knowledge if I ever get there. Sometimes in a jam, the leader  will call out the chords.  That can be very helpful if you have not come from a guitar or piano background. These days,  I try to approach a jam at least being familiar with the chords in the most common tunes.  It helps me more than anyone else.

I'd  like to be able to use licks to  put a twist on my playing so it's clear that it's a swing tune  as opposed to a  bluegrass vocal - or  maybe backing up a folk  or country singer.   Also, I'm  finding licks very useful as fills to play in the pauses at the end of lines.  So I do a lot of listening to those great players.  Vassar and Bobby Hicks, Stuart Duncan, Mark O'Connor...the list goes on and on.  Some are more notey than others but all are masters. Many of the newer young players are mind boggling. They have had the advantage of learning from those who have gone before and paved the way.

  Early on, I  was told  - don't play the melody behind the vocals - or  behind any other instrument when they are  taking their break because that's their  moment in the sun.  So a lick or occasional long note seems to be less intrusive.

That's where I'm at.  Where are you?

Edited by - irfiddler on 05/19/2013 13:43:43

bsed - Posted - 05/19/2013:  13:38:33

(Sgt. Joe Friday voice): "I don't improvise, ma'am. I play Old Time."

irfiddler - Posted - 05/19/2013:  13:45:37

I know bsed - and you do it very well too:)

Lee M - Posted - 05/19/2013:  14:03:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by bsed

 

(Sgt. Joe Friday voice): "I don't improvise, ma'am. I play Old Time."

---

When I listen to OT musicians play a tune time and time again without improv, they usually get into an amazing 'groove'.. I envy their ability to do that.  As for me, I never play the same tune 'once' the same way.  PS  I like the Joe Friday quote.  Sorry, but most hangout members probably are too young to know who Joe Friday was.

irfiddler - Posted - 05/19/2013:  14:23:08

This is just one example of improv - and backup fiddling. .

youtube.com/watch?v=jkZoonVJPwA

From the soundtrack of the movie Winters Bone. The singer is Meredith Sisco, and the fiddler, I believe, is
Missouri Ozarks fiddle master Billy Ward.

Lee M - Posted - 05/19/2013:  14:26:50

Personally, I no 'squat' about backup fiddling, but Winter's Bone was a wonderful movie...

fiddlechops - Posted - 05/19/2013:  14:44:15

I consider myself to be a 'melodic improvisor' but in my breaks I never play the tune the singer has just sung. I play a singable line of music (well thats what I call melodic)  that follows the chord progression. When the singer is doing her stuff I chop or shuffle on the chord progression, when there is not any singing I sometimes play fills, but I don't call them licks because that would imply that I repeat a pattern of notes that was in my bag. My fills are never the same played twice.

irfiddler - Posted - 05/19/2013:  16:10:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry George

 

I consider myself to be a 'melodic improvisor' but in my breaks I never play the tune the singer has just sung. I play a singable line of music (well thats what I call melodic)  that follows the chord progression. When the singer is doing her stuff I chop or shuffle on the chord progression, when there is not any singing I sometimes play fills, but I don't call them licks because that would imply that I repeat a pattern of notes that was in my bag. My fills are never the same played twice.

---

Don't know why I call them "licks"  - probably picked it up at some workshop.  Or - come to think of it - maybe it came from Stacey Phillips book "Hot Licks for Bluegrass Fiddle".  But at my level it's reassuring to be able to pull a stock lick out  from my little bag of tricks from time to time if I'm stuck.  It is a learning crutch.

There is always that problem of every tune sounding the same if you keep repeating the same ones,  so I I try  to keep learning new ones and playing the old ones in different ways.   I would really like to be able to do as you do and improvise on the spot all the time.

By the way Henry - I am also from Australia - Central Queensland.  Still miss it - but US is home now after 48+ years. here.   There definitely is a big cultural difference but probably not so big as when I left.  That was a shock to the system!   But TV and the Internet are  great levelers.

  I watched some of your videos on your website - great fun!  We have a wonderful fiddler also called Henry the Fiddler over here.

Blue - Posted - 05/19/2013:  16:58:03

I'm not at a point in my fiddling where I do a lot of improvising yet, but on mandolin it was mostly melodic.  Here's a version of "High On A Mountain" with a different feel than the one you posted that has some interesting things going on.  

youtube.com/watch?v=taXs8GnH8EY

bsed - Posted - 05/19/2013:  18:10:26

I'm not sure if I fully know the diff between 'licks' and bowing patterns. To wit, I was in an Irish session this week, and I didn't know all the tunes, but I recognized some very Irish bowing patterns that I could groove on.

modon - Posted - 05/19/2013:  18:11:12

Van Colbert played banjo in Winter's Bone. That band has been touring as Blackberry Winter with Meridith, Van, Dennis Cryder and others.
Van and I were members of the Wolf Creek Possum Poachers years ago. There was an ongoing argument among the members of the Possum Poachers which one was better... to learn scales, or to learn licks. My position was (and still is) that when you study scales for improvisation, your lines sound like scales. Learning licks allows you to be less predictable.

Dave S - Posted - 05/19/2013:  21:14:06

My position is that when your fingers always go where you 'think" them to go, you've reached fiddle nirvana, and the best way to get there is to know the fingerboard, and the best way to know it is to practice scales and arpeggios and various ascending/descending patterns and common phrases in as many keys as you have the time and self-discipline to do. I may get there in another couple of decades, if I live long enough. ;-)

irfiddler - Posted - 05/19/2013:  21:44:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by bsed

 

I'm not sure if I fully know the diff between 'licks' and bowing patterns. To wit, I was in an Irish session this week, and I didn't know all the tunes, but I recognized some very Irish bowing patterns that I could groove on.

---

 Hmmmm.  how to explain "licks"?   Here's just  one partial definition, Bruce........

In popular music genres such as  jazz or bluegrass,  a lick is "a stock pattern or musical phrase" consisting of a short series of notes  that is used during solo breaks or during accompaniment.

 They  are usually original short phrases which can be altered so that they can be used over a song's changing harmonic progressions.

So Irish bowing "patterns" would be a different issue.

Someone familiar with Irish music sessions should be able to answer your question better.   I've played very little Irish music - just some basic tunes like Morrisons and Drowsy Maggie  (my favorites),  Blarney Pilgrim, Swallowtail Jig - Merrily Kissed the Quakers Wife  -  and at the sessions I've been to, there were no solos taken. All the melody instruments played together and pretty much played  the same notes - ,  so there wasn't any melodic improv that I could tell - though there could have been some chordal or percussive  fiddle backup - which is what I think you were doing?

When are you coming back this way, Bruce?  Time to visit your relatives again? There is  a really good oldtime jam going every 1st and 3rd  Thurs evening now  - and you would probably enjoy the  weekly Sunday afternoon Old Time Fiddlers jam too.

Edited by - irfiddler on 05/19/2013 21:50:16

mudbug - Posted - 05/20/2013:  04:24:32

I'm deffinitely in the melodic camp.  I love beautiful melodies.  I'm a singer,  so I seem to stick with the melody on a break,  playing with the phrasing like a singer,  as much as I'm able to with my limited fiddling skills.

martynspeck - Posted - 05/20/2013:  06:57:55

While I'm still in the beginning stages of working on improvising so I can't tell you what I do I can tell you what I like to hear and would like to do.

I like the melodies otherwise I wouldn't play the tune and want to improvise on it. I like it when musicians improvise because it's fun and you get unexpected moments in tunes.

If you're just playing the melody, you're not improvising. But it annoys me when someone strays so far from the melody that I can't tell what the tune is.

Some of the more modern Jazz musicians are especially guilty of this. It's all random notes and dissonance.

For my part I'm starting with Hot Licks for Bluegrass Fiddle by Stacy Phillips and also working on "singiddling" as Ground Hog Peggy coined it. I figure if I can play with myself singing, I can play with others singing or playing mandolin or guitar etc.. And if I can learn some standard licks I'll have a start on my own variations and be interesting when it's time for me to lead.

JHDuncan - Posted - 05/20/2013:  08:04:56

I used to play a lot of phrases that are found repeated a bunch in bluegrass fiddle. What I have found after recording myself live with a band or at jams is sometimes even if you pull the lick off, in time and in tune it is very un dynamic.

I am purposefully trying to move to an almost entirely melody based approach for leads and solos. Back up is a different story.  

irfiddler - Posted - 05/20/2013:  11:25:58

I love beautiful melodies too and wish I sang - but my voice is too soft so I never studied singing too much. Sometimes I do sing some harmonies though and that is fun.

Even if you don't sing, playing in bands or jams with singers teaches you a lot about phrasing and as Mudbug says, It really can help with fiddling. I'd like to try Peggy's "Singiddling" too. Not sure how trying to do two things at once will go - it's hard enough to do one:)

Back to fiddling: When you're starting, here's some ideas for putting together a bluegrass fiddle BREAK - as opposed to fiddle BACKUP. As JH pointed out - they are different animals. These tips can help till you figure out your own style. Probably works best for energetic tunes like Mountain Dew, Rollin in My Sweet Baby's Arms. - perhaps not so much for the soulful ones like Wayfaring Stranger, though it could be modified a bit I think.

1). A snappy intro - or a good leadin even if it's just a few notes. Play it aggressively like a fiddler - don't be a wimp. You've spent all these hours practicing - this is your chance to show your stuff. You can fade into the woodwork when the next player takes their turn. Once in a while, anticipate the beat if you can pull it off - timing has to be perfect.

2). Play the melody, but add some double stops, a lick here or there, a shuffle where appropriate, a blue note or two...don't overdo the slides even though they can add so much.....and so on. Try out a new lick or trick on a regular basis. Keep updating your old tunes as you improve.

3). For the ending, if you are being followed by another break, try to ease out gradually as you step back - it makes for a smoother transition. If you are the one ending the tune, you can do a tag or maybe just a nice long note. If you carefully watch some of the videos of bands- you can see what the fiddler is doing - his body language.

4). Try to pick up on the chords that are being played....., and smile once in a while.

There's lots of other approaches of course and this just scratches the surface. I would be happy if I could do a big part of this ....once in a while.......

RobBob - Posted - 05/21/2013:  05:23:48

Yes.

snakefinger - Posted - 05/26/2013:  11:05:04

Mainly I try to articulate the melody differently through the ornamentation. My playing went up a notch when I started seeing that as rhythmic rather than melodic variation. I'm not sure we have 'licks' in Irish music.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/26/2013:  20:44:49

I really only learned to improvise about 12 years ago, and that on electric guitar.  I have been able to transfer SOME of it to fiddle to a limited extent.  Basically I'm a melodic improviser.  However, it's kind of funny, while I seldom learn licks from other people (aside from those intro licks to '60's rock songs that were part of my teenage years) after a while, the improvisation kind of gels or hardens into my own collection of my OWN favorite licks.  One group I played electric with, one of the guitarists would kid me about my "signature lick"!!!

One exception was that for blues I decided I needed to learn a good traditional turnaround lick, so I learned one out of a book.  Before long it became a whole series of licks as I played around with it.  Maybe I need to learn some more licks from other people and play around with them like that!

irfiddler - Posted - 05/28/2013:  00:47:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

I really only learned to improvise about 12 years ago, and that on electric guitar.  I have been able to transfer SOME of it to fiddle to a limited extent. 

I am finding that I get a lot of inspiration these days from listening to instrumentalists other than fiddlers - especially really good mandolin and guitar players when they are playing their breaks. 

I don't copy note for note  -  I just follow the general drift.  They usually play such wonderful arpeggios and chord patterns and as you say, Pogo,  you can transfer some of that to fiddle. Often they will have very imaginative, unexpected phrasing too.  Discovering this has been quite a breakthrough in my improvising.

Edited by - irfiddler on 05/28/2013 01:03:32

blgrssr - Posted - 05/29/2013:  13:30:57

I do almost exclusive. Licks. But admittedly, i need to do more melody. Its ike a drug. To me.

irfiddler - Posted - 05/29/2013:  14:13:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by blgrssr



I do almost exclusive. Licks. But admittedly, i need to do more melody. Its ike a drug. To me.

---

Nothing wrong with that - that's your style.  Personal taste. There are some dazzling fiddlers who play mostly licks. Maybe we can dig up a few examples.  We probably will never stop changing though  as we get better at improvising. don't you think?   It's a challenge -  a black hole.

I know what you mean about it acting like a drug - it can become almost addictive and you can get a high from playing - especially a high energy fiddle tune or break or  if you get into the groove.

In a few weeks  I'll be going to a festival and Michael Cleveland and Ricky Skaggs will be playing - also Dennis Caplinger with Bluegrass Etc.   I'm going to be listening for new things when I hear them play this time.

irfiddler - Posted - 05/29/2013:  21:17:54

Here is Lonesome Fiddle Blues played by the Black Mountain Boys. The fiddler is Jesse Brown. I cannot imagine this tune being played any better than this young man's version!

The first time through, he plays the tune fairly straight. but second time through, he launches into a series of dazzling licks in the B part.

youtube.com/watch?v=MMRxvQ6T10Y

This tune was written by Vassar Clements and is often thought to be the inspiration for Devil Went Down to Georgia. (The version I play is posted on my homepage. I play it pretty straight but I'd like to add some more licks).

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 05/30/2013:  06:03:40

Melodic. The fiddle is such a melodic, singing instrument that I can't imagine a good fiddler ever getting too far away from that which is its strength.

When I first started I was sometimes a lick player because I didn't know my way around the strings yet and my intonation was terrible, so I played what I could when I could. But now there are just so many different ways to play off of or around the melody without playing the straight melody that there is rarely any need for a standard, run of the mill lick.

And if I do play a lick it is more than likely a chordal lick, which is part of the shifting melodic harmony of the melody and thus still really melodic.

abinigia - Posted - 05/30/2013:  14:14:33

Licks are like spices to embellish the main ingredients. A longtime complaint of mine about licks (which I more often direct at guitar players) is that lick oriented playing makes everything sound the same after awhile. That's especially true if all your licks are based on the pentatonic blues scale. That said, I tend to play lots of lick-type fills when someone is singing. On breaks I try to think of them as spices for the melody. If on some level your playing isn't coming from the actual melody then maybe you're a lazy player.

NCarolinaFiddler - Posted - 05/30/2013:  14:18:41

As of now I don't know yet. I think I'm just now starting get in my head how to really improvise on tunes a little bit more than I use to. I'm starting to understand it a little better on what might work and what won't. So...maybe more melodic but not sure.

irfiddler - Posted - 06/05/2013:  01:13:15

From an article in the Wall Street Journal:

On June 1st, 2013, in NYC, Mark O'Connor is breaking new ground yet again. He will be performing his new Improvised Concerto. The improvisational part of the concerto applies only to the violinist. The orchestra's part is written out, as in typical symphonic music.

In videos of the complete concerto on Mr. O'Connor's website, the orchestra part alternates between melodies and a backdrop of rhythmic material or chords, on top of which Mr. O'Connor improvises. In one performance, his improvisations ranged in style from jazz to heavy metal to country fiddling. He said he has invented some new genres in the process. "In the 'Faith' movement, I came up with Gospel Hoedown," he said. "It's like a fiddle jubilee."

"The notes are written out, but they are spelling out chords and changes. There are little filler licks. It's definitely really fiddly, which is going to be really fun."

Could another violinist perform this concerto? "Probably," said Mr. O'Connor. "There are young people right now training their eyes on something like this, who are going to have the skills and the chops and the career. It's exciting to usher in new pieces that will inspire a new generation of string players."

fdllicks - Posted - 06/05/2013:  05:11:28

Having learned my 25th lick in the key of g , i am trying to force myself to stop chasing down licks. (unless its a really good one!) No stop! Stop! stop , you must stop this!
Or i could work on A licks, no, Stop!!! This must end!! Or c licks, i dont have many of them.

Edited by - fdllicks on 06/05/2013 05:12:18

irfiddler - Posted - 06/05/2013:  13:32:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fdllicks



Having learned my 25th lick in the key of g , i am trying to force myself to stop chasing down licks. (unless its a really good one!) No stop! Stop! stop , you must stop this!

Or i could work on A licks, no, Stop!!! This must end!! Or c licks, i dont have many of them.

---

OH  NO!!    You're addicted too! 

So now, we just have to figure out where we put 'em now we have them

I like to use them as fills.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 06/06/2014:  20:52:44

Good stuff.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 06/06/2014:  22:34:47

I think for me it depends a lot on how well I know the tune. If I know the song, then I try and be more of a melodic improviser. If I don't know the tune, then I end up being more of a licks/runs sort of improviser ...

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/07/2014:  08:37:00

When I play a bluegrass banjo, most Scruggs style plalying was based on licks. Some were even named after players who popularized a particular lick. Using licks makes improvisation easier. That is the upside. Listmember "modon" thinks practicing scales makes your licks sound like scales. The problem with relying on licks occurs when you are using your favorite licks too often and giving your playing a repetitive feel. When I played banjo, I had to work on getting new licks all the time, and to fight the tendency to rely on the same licks too often. Bluegrass guitar players have this problem with bass runs. Lester Flatt's bass run comes to mind right away.

Edited by - Dick Hauser on 06/07/2014 08:38:08

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/07/2014:  13:45:38

"Licks" has perhaps different connotations.

The difference I see is perhaps more in;

A. Using the melody as springboard to improvise, keeping more aspects of contour, phrasing. A bit more like just having a variation on the same basic melodic theme; pushing and pulling it slightly this way or that way, twisting it - often involves separating or reducing to the the basic melody from the fill.(the fills might be called licks) .- Largely that basic melodic theme is always present.

B. Using more chord progression, harmonic space as the springboard for improvisation. To which it might try and incorporate a few critical anchors from the melody, but can depart a lot from the melody; using scales/mode, licks, or riff ideas over the progression, to even extreme (in some styles of music) just inserting a new melody not much related to the actual melody .

There is some overlap, one difference is if just hearing the improvisation - can you tell what the tune is? In A the basic melody is almost always played, you can recognize it. In B, not so much (other than maybe having the melody in imagination).

I generally like to do (and listen to) A - much more than B. But occasionally still enjoy doing and listening to B. It depends on the type of music. (a lot of blues for example, IMO begs for more B ideas)

saltcured - Posted - 08/11/2014:  17:07:12

Anybody ever tried working out some of those common banjo licks on the fiddle? They involve a lot of string crossings but definitely get the attention of the banjo picker in the jam (assuming he's listening). Sort of like coming full circle ain't it since Thompson, Keith and others worked out fiddle tunes on the banjo - I'm thinking particularly of Keith's great version of Sailors Hornpipe. Not to mention Vassar himself I heard borrowed licks from the big band music he grew up listening to.

saltcured - Posted - 08/12/2014:  06:27:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by saltcured

 

Keith's great version of Sailors Hornpipe

I don't mind admitting trying - trying that is - to put some those licks into my own playing of it, they're so good

Edited by - saltcured on 08/12/2014 06:28:53

fujers - Posted - 08/13/2014:  18:41:01

I,m a melodic improv player. But sometimes I paint I outside of the lines and sometimes I play on the outside. Phrasing that's all.

You never play the melody while a singer is singing chances are you won't be in tune with the singer. Instead you choose different notes to hit, theres plenty of them so choose your notes.

You never play all the time. No ones wants to hear fiddle all the time..let the song breath give others a chance to play.

Improv to me takes the high road..it's something I do very well. Have to know your scales tho. Nothing is cheap you have to work for it. Jerry

fiddlechops - Posted - 08/13/2014:  22:44:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

 

Improv to me takes the high road..it's something I do very well.

---

Never really heard you do it Jerry...? Just those tracks you keep posting of that album you did with the steel player, are you improvising there..? It sounds contrived...you worked something out before recording.... of course you did, for the recording....?

Lets hear some real improv stuff..... you know, something ''by the seat of your pants''.....something ''on the spot''....something you ''never heard before''......

Mojohand40 - Posted - 08/14/2014:  06:52:39

When improvising a bluegrass break on the fiddle (or mandolin)...I almost always try to keep to the melody a bit, usually throwing in some stock licks between the melody's "verses", or at least at the end of the break to bring it back to the 1 chord.  I also tend to rely quite a bit on the chord changes of the break, i,e.  finger around in double stops, for the various chords and pull stuff from that.

When I'm taking a mandolin break, especially during a song that I don't normally play, I tend to rely on chord grips (fingerings) to find a lot of the notes and ideas on the fly and play through the chord changes for the break that way. Especially if I do a lot of crosspicking (my poor Jesse McReynolds impersonations..) So, I'm very chord based/melody based in my breaks, on mandolin, and that has influenced my bluegrass fiddle breaks more then anything else, so I tend to think of fiddle breaks like that also.

I played in a good private Bluegrass Jam this past Sunday, and got to do about 60% fiddle and 40% mandolin.  A lot of times I tend to stick to mandolin more at these, as 1) I'm a little more comfortable in BG with a mando (been doing it longer) and 2) usually there isn't another mandolin player there and you need that back beat. (imo). This time I was lucky and another fellow was there who was a pretty good mando picker and kept switching between that and guitar, so I got to fiddle a lot more.

When I first got into playing with others years ago in Bluegrass settings, I had a few old timers who basically all said the same thing: "If you can't hear the melody in your break, you ain't playing it right".  I find this is often what separates a more "old School" "traditional" flavored bluegrass solo from a more "modern" "new grass" style, regardless of instrument.  (nothing wrong with either way, if done right, though).

fujers - Posted - 08/14/2014:  09:31:39

Henry, That was by the seat of my pants. Every single fiddle lick I did on every tune on that alblum was ad lib. I did not have a tape or CD before hand to listen to. Wayne called me and asked if I would play on his recordings and I said yes

I did 9 tunes in two days. Contrived? It's as far away as contrived as you can get.

I was the last one to come in to record. So all the parts were there except the fiddle. I would sit down and play lick after lick after lick till they got what they wanted. Then I'd play it. Now if want to call that contrived be my guest..I call it ad lib

Take Ashokan Farewell. I never played that tune before. I've heard it but never played it. I had to learn that on the fly. I learned it and recorded it. To top it all off I played twin to myself and then 3 fiddles at the end. Contrived I don't think so

So every single note I hit was made up on the fly. Every line I played ..made up on the fly. Every phrase made up on the fly.Every tune was made up on the fly. I just made the stuff up and played it.

Heres Ashokan once again..as if you haven't heard enough of it. Gets old doesn't it. I can't get to my other tunes my old pc crashed and all my tunes with it. I think I have another tune in FH storage I'll play that one as well. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 08/14/2014 09:40:02

Wonderful World

Half As Much

All Of Me

Ashokans Farewell New

fiddlechops - Posted - 08/14/2014:  21:11:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

 I would sit down and play lick after lick after lick till they got what they wanted. Then I'd play it. Now if want to call that contrived be my guest..I call it ad lib

 

 

---

Sorry Jerry, it seems we have  differing definitions of........ ''by the seat of your pants''................

Mine is........''sit down....start playing.... the first take is it.... no chances for a second take...''

no time to run through your bag of licks.........( what about this lick? or this one.? )

No, No..... play it now before the song has ended.........!?

fujers - Posted - 08/14/2014:  21:39:45

Henry, We are two different animals. But don't you think we are the same in regards to playing.

When you hit the stage...without even knowing the tune..the key..the timing. You play the tune with your heart and knowledge of your instrument.

You can't tell me that this is not true

Everytime you go out to play you're playing by the seat of your pants. Thats what fiddlers do. It doesn't matter what the name of the song is..it doesn't matter what key..except C# I've already explained that key haha. You just play what you know. Thats what I played on this session. I just played

fiddlechops - Posted - 08/14/2014:  21:55:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Everytime you go out to play you're playing by the seat of your pants. Thats what fiddlers do.

---

Like I said Jerry ..our definition are very different...

When I go to open mics I ''put myself on the spot''.......''play it now, because there are no retakes''....It's a remedy for disaster, and sometimes it don't work so well.

But after awhile you don't care, then you got the ego out of the way, that's when.....''You play the tune with your heart''........

Edited by - fiddlechops on 08/14/2014 21:57:40

fujers - Posted - 08/14/2014:  22:24:03

Yeah Henry, Thats about it. You put yourself out on a limb everytime you play. But it's fun ain't it?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/15/2014:  00:52:55

One aspect of licks that instrumentalists forget about in the focus on soloing:

Bluegrass and Blues are both singing idioms, as well as genres that show off players' hot solos.

Songs have spaces between the last word of a line, and the beginning of the next line.

There isn't much time to put something in there, but putting something in there is not only part of both genres, it also keeps everyone in the same place in the song.  This licks are called "fills".

Because the space is so small, the focus is on a single lick that happens to fit the chord structure of that place in the song, and that just WORKS well with the sung melody.  Better to steal/borrow/adapt someone else's lick for that place in the song, than to put in something half-baked that messes up the song!

In a solo, licks aren't as crucial- you can sound tentative and meander a bit at the beginning, as long as you can build towards a big climax!

You've got time to experiment and come up with your own ideas.   But, having learned licks, they are bound to influence your solo playing too... like any time your at a loss to come up with an idea of your own, you can fall back on a lick.

I've found it relatively easy to come up with new ideas when the backup is holding a particular chord for a while.  When you have an unusual chord change, I find it much harder to come up with a variety of stuff to play there.  A good lick, maybe modified a bit to make it your own will keep you from looking STUPID!!!

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/15/2014 00:53:41

fiddlechops - Posted - 08/15/2014:  01:45:10

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

  A good lick, maybe modified a bit to make it your own will keep you from looking STUPID!!!

 

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Yeah, the fear of looking stupid...the fear of failure...That's why you need a ''bag of licks'' so the ego won't get hurt.........?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/15/2014:  13:48:59

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlebutcher

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

  A good lick, maybe modified a bit to make it your own will keep you from looking STUPID!!!

 

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Yeah, the fear of looking stupid...the fear of failure...That's why you need a ''bag of licks'' so the ego won't get hurt.........?

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Inevitably, in an improvisational jam, the ego is going to take a beating every now and then.  Things don't go as well as you want them to.

An inevitable part of improvisational jams is a certain amount of nervousness at being in the spotlight.  In the long run, you can make it work for you, with the adrenalin rush and all.

But in the short run, it can leaving you stuck and clueless about what to do next. THAT'S what I mean by looking stupid... not just playing so-so, or making more than average amount of mistakes... but  really being unable to come up with ANYTHING.  THAT is painful enough that I'd rather avoid it.

It's the difference between being humbled and being humiliated.  I'll accept the former, but I'd rather pass on the latter, thank you!

A lick can get you back in the flow, get you back in the game when that happens.

(Actually, now that I think of it, it probably reminds me of a painful experience I had when I was 14... you see, I played electric guitar in this "garage band", and...)

Then again, sometimes people don't use OTHER peoples licks.... but they've developed "signature licks" that are a kind of fall back lick of their own, that work in the same way.  It may sound like they're improvising if you've never heard them before, but maybe they really aren't improvising at that moment in time.

fiddlechops - Posted - 08/15/2014:  17:41:58

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

Then again, sometimes people don't use OTHER peoples licks.... but they've developed "signature licks" that are a kind of fall back lick of their own, that work in the same way. 

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Ah Well Pogo....You  speak of your own experiences, but don't assume it applies to others....!?

If you never ''feel the fear'' then your ego will get a beating every time....

And if you worry about your ego getting a beating you will be nervous......

If you are clueless about what to do next then you got some home work to do....

I never studied anyone's licks and I don't have ''signature licks''...( what ever that is )........Still, I can improvise all night...... on the one chord....!

It's not about having a bag of licks to fall back on, or any special techniques.......

It's about being fearless, being immersed in the sounds, enjoying the moment, playing from the heart and having fun................!?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/15/2014:  19:57:50

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlebutcher

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

Then again, sometimes people don't use OTHER peoples licks.... but they've developed "signature licks" that are a kind of fall back lick of their own, that work in the same way. 

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Ah Well Pogo....You  speak of your own experiences, but don't assume it applies to others....!?

If you never ''feel the fear'' then your ego will get a beating every time....

And if you worry about your ego getting a beating you will be nervous......

If you are clueless about what to do next then you got some home work to do....

I never studied anyone's licks and I don't have ''signature licks''...( what ever that is )........Still, I can improvise all night...... on the one chord....!

It's not about having a bag of licks to fall back on, or any special techniques.......

It's about being fearless, being immersed in the sounds, enjoying the moment, playing from the heart and having fun................!?

 

 

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Ah, but "back at ya"- don't assume your experience applies to everybody either.  After all, you are the one critiquing other people's performance or concept of improv because it doesn't match your experience!   You sound like you might be improvising at a high level... well, that's great, but that's not everyone, for sure.  Also, you seem to be a jazz player, first and foremost... bluegrass and blues seem to be bit more common here.

Some string together enough different licks in a creative enough way, that people enjoy it.  Others are in the middle... I'm more in the middle.  In fact, I haven't been improvising ALL that long.... maybe 14 or 15 years now- and I'm 62!!!  And much of it has been on electric guitar.

I have moments where it feels like I'm composing stuff on the fly.... other times where it sounds all too familiar, either a standard lick I picked up somehow, (I don't actually study that many), or something that I tend to play quite a bit.   Sometimes I stick close to the melody and add some loop-de-loops around it, other times I get pretty free.

As far as this thread, people can pick and choose from the experiences (yours, mine, Jerry's, or someone else's) that they relate to best, and that seem to point the way forward to the next step they need to take.

And for much of my playing, I'm not improvising at all.... when I play solo, I'm just playing familiar tunes.

If it's enjoyable music, I don't really care whether something is brand new improvised on the spot, or a hundred and fifty years old- I don't, and I think a lot of listeners don't either.

Back when I was mostly hanging around electric guitar newsgroups, I heard that two famous blues guitarists were mostly stringers-together-of-licks. (I'm not going to say which ones, because I don't know if it's actually true or not)

I don't care- I enjoy their playing!!!!

Actually, improvising on the I chord is what I do best.... it's improvising over the changes where it's hard to be creative each and every time.

Also, someone has said that true improvising is just composing really fast.

Well, I enjoy composing really fast if I can get it.... but I enjoy composing more slowly too.  One blues turnaround lick I studied out on guitar morphed into at least three complete 12 bar variations.  Maybe it'll morph some more!

Slow or fast, the enjoyability, the ability of the composition to speak to people is what counts, as far as I'm concerned.