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irfiddler - Posted - 08/19/2014: 20:43:42
This past weekend we camped at a local music Festival and I spent a lot of time renewing old musical friendships and jamming -some bluegrass and old time, a bit of Irish - but mostly swing tunes.
At one point there were 3 fiddlers taking turns playing gypsy jazz and swing - none of us were experts but we were lucky enough to have a couple of great backup guitarists and a really good bass player. Also an accordian:-)
I hadn't played any of this stuff for a year or so and was rusty, but it came back after a fashion and I realized how much I love this style of music. Lady Be Good, All of Me, Undecided, Aint Misbehavin"; Minor Swing, Bossa Dorado - and so on.
It was interesting to hear the different approaches we fiddlers took. One played mostly improv - it was dazzling - but I barely recognized the tune. Next came a fiddler who stuck strictly to the melody. My goal is to be somewhere in the middle. I want to play the melody - but I also want to put in some variations. I'm not ashamed to admit I listen to the greats - a lot - and my ear will pick up on something they are playing - maybe as a fill - and I will try to remember what they played that caught my attention. It's usually something I think I can handle. I have to work on these little favorites - some more than others - and some eventually become part of my own personal musical style and - from time to time - show up in my playing.. I'm sure I don't play these little licks the way I heard them - so perhaps they are really my own "signature " licks as Pogo said. To my surprise, I've been told by a few fiddlers that they have copied something I played, so I think that process is probably how most of us develop our personal styles. - by osmosis.
Edited by - irfiddler on 08/19/2014 20:50:50
fujers - Posted - 08/19/2014: 21:12:16
Good keep on exploring. You'll get it in time
fiddlechops - Posted - 08/20/2014: 14:56:27
quote:
Originally posted by irfiddler
so I think that process is probably how most of us develop our personal styles. - by osmosis.
I think this a very true statement.......but I exclude myself, because my style has been developed from within me.
I never tried to copy anyone's playing either in person or from a recording. If did do that, and I have done, it would be to prove to myself that I could pick up something by ear. But it never filtered through to my subconscious.
Every bit of improvisation I play has been thought about by me and practiced to be part of my style..........
ucalldatmusic? - Posted - 08/20/2014: 19:01:26
There are exceptions to any rules. But in general, my favorite improvised solos, mine or others, have enough of the melody so that if the solo were heard all by itself,(like if it was a multi-track recording, you could turn off all the other tracks and listen to the solo naked, all by itself) you could tell what song was. The further it strays from the melody without losing it, the better. But it needs to have a connection to the real melody.
I have been guilty of playing solos, that when played back later, even I couldn't tell what song it was lifted from. The artist that I had hired me at the time asked if I could please learn the song and try it again. Ouch. But I have since learned that non-musicians (most of the world's population) really appreciate being able to tell what song is being played.
So, like I said, there are always exceptions. And another favorite is, playing the melody from a completely different song that has he same chord progression and works at the same tempo. Just for fun. :)
fujers - Posted - 08/20/2014: 20:03:20
Interesting. There are many tunes that have the same chords..how many chords can be counted a lot.
When I play I always start with the melody then I go downtown. Starting with the melody gives the people you are playing to a reference
Lets say I.m playing Lady Be Good. I would play just the opening lines of the tune then let improve take over
Playing solos? Believe me I know where you're coming from..I've been there a many times. I wish you the best in your fiddle playing. Jerry
irfiddler - Posted - 08/22/2014: 23:36:23
quote:
Originally posted by ucalldatmusic?
And another favorite is, playing the melody from a completely different song that has he same chord progression and works at the same tempo. Just for fun. :)
E.g. Hernando's Hideaway and La Cumparsita.
Dick Hauser - Posted - 08/23/2014: 08:46:48
Before physical problems arose, my main instrument was 5 string banjo, and I played bluegrass music "Scruggs Style", "Melodic Style", and a little "Reno" style. The banjo players world is one of constant improvisation. We practiced a library of "licks" just about every day, and we practiced playing them with recordings. The "lick library' was divided by chord. Whenever the band played and it was time for a instrumental break, the banjo player often heard "take it banjo !!!". In some cases it was the first time I had ever heard the tune, and still wasn't sure of the chord progression. It is like being thrown into a pond and either sinking or learning to swim. Fortunately, banjos are tuned in a key and it is easy to play out of chord positions. In addition, rhythm can be modified some. Changes in rhythm seem to catch the listeners ears. Even band members are often pleasantly surprised when this happens.
Some players who are long time notation users mention having problems playing by "ear". I think this attitude comes from never wanting to make a mistake. Good improvisors enjoy being on the edge of disaster when improvising. If a person wants to learn to improvise, I think "fujers" recommendation to "just do it" is appropriate. Just do it when you are jamming. Learn to laugh at your mistakes. Great sounding licks don't always start out that way. Laugh and the listeners laugh with you.
pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/23/2014: 10:36:36
imo when improvising , cadences , chord function and key changes and what the melody does against or with these changes,is more important than just learning the changes,knowing why the chords are changing gives more insight into the tune,than just knowing the progression, its like understanding the lyrics and mood of a song rather than just reciting it.
even if you get it wrong (what is wrong if it sounds ok?)at least you have made the tune your own, and you will make a better job next time,to me the beauty is in the differences between players interpretations,not so much the similarities.
Eric Sprado - Posted - 09/17/2014: 21:50:18
Way more complex than a simple discussion! I either played fiddle and fronted my band OR was called to back up somebody coming through town whose fiddler hurt a finger or something. When backing up a singer your responsibility is manifold: I too was taught to never play the same not the singer lands on EXCEPT when that singer may be having a "weak voice" night and really does need "help". My breaks may be melodic but vary in their portrayal of the tune. A backup to a sweet song needs to be sweet and tasteful. If I'm taking a ripping break on a tune like "Six Days On The Road" or "Freight Train Blues" I may start with a nice doublestop using a flatted third under a sixth note (i.e. Bflat on A string with open E while rhythm section is chunking out a G chord). Strictly honky tonk night club fiddling but VERY effective! One song may call for a break using blues scale, another the pentatonic scale, and yet another just a nice major scale run. You DON'T need to formally know the names of these scales but your ear darn well better know them if you would like to get called back. Feel free to listen to my sound tracks (such as they are) and some of these examples may be on there.. Eric Sprado
mackeagan - Posted - 09/23/2014: 17:05:15
After having read all the posts, I decide I must put in my $2.00 (that's two pence, adjusted for inflation!). First, all you jazz players out there, have none of yehs checked out the two Stephane Grappelli books by Dutch "gypsy jazz" fiddler, Tim Kliphuis ?? ( my niece, who is part Dutch, tells me his name is pronounced, "Klip-house") The first book has several chapters on bowing and improvising, followed by 6 transcriptions of Grappelli solos, varying levels of difficulty. The second book, "Grappelli Licks", has more tips to get close to that Grappelli sound, plus several chapters of licks in the most commonly used keys and some ideas on how to use them. I recommend the second book as a starting place. (and no, I don't own stock in Mel Bay)
Grappelli himself has been quoted (somewhere) as saying words to the effect of we should at least play the melody at the beginning of the tune, so as to show respect for the composer and as a sort of starting point. Play the melody, or play close to the melody.
My own approach is to play the melody, inserting licks and altering it a wee bit as I go. Think of the way older jazz singers would be singing the words, and then burst into "scat" singing, " bip-bop-bop" or "diddley-deedley-doodley bomp", something like that.
Regarding Irish music, I would say not exactly, licks, but altering phrases occasionally and grace-notes like birls, triplets, pull-offs, semi-tone slides, turns(aka rolls or crans). Check out Martin Hayes for examples of how Irish fiddling can incorporate elements of jazz, yet still sound completely trad.
Hope this is helpful!
amwildman - Posted - 09/23/2014: 18:22:27
Are you sure about all that Irish music stuff? In my experience, many of those terms are not used at all, and newer Martin Hayes recent material is not "completely trad'. IMO, of course.
I've never heard anybody use the term birl, pull-off, turn, 'alternating phrases', or semi-tone slide. Birl = treble or bowed triplet. pull-off is present, but I've never heard it called anything. 'alternating phrases' = variations. slide is not labeled in my experience, mainly because to call something a slide would be confused with the tune type of the same name. Trebles, rolls, crans, etc would typically be rhythmic devices and NOT be considered grace notes(not just within the tradition, but by most people with a discerning ear). Also, IME Irish musicians aren't nearly as inclined to label their stuff as we are, and really don't care for everything to be named and labeled. I, for one, am happy to not Americanize every style of music that comes along. Unique flavors are incredibly welcome to me.
As to whether Irish music might use licks or not, I think it is a matter of perspective. Since there are typically only 3-4 variations used for many of these phrases, you could say that these variations are pre-programmed. No true Irish player would likely ever admit such, but essentially, a lot of the music is filled with licks.
mackeagan - Posted - 09/24/2014: 10:30:03
Whoa, hey, I 'm not saying players actually use any of those terms, at least, not a lot. That's "altering phrases", not "alternating phrases", by which I mean, for example, the last measure of our example hornpipe is usually played, d-f#-d, but the fiddler decides to play d-triplet-d. Although it could be altering in other places, and changing 2 or 3 bars instead of just the ending.
Yes, I get the confusion that using "slide" to describe a semi-tone slide versus the 12/8 "shlide", but most of the local fiddlers in our session wouldn't have a problem with it, if say, you were discussing how you played that f# in bar 1 of Maid Behind the Bar. Anyhow, I don't know about you, but I have a fair bit of difficulty speaking while fiddling so I wouldn't be calling out, "short roll in bar 5" while trying to cruise along at speed.
i've seen Martin Hayes play live with Denny Cahill, and my second thought was, "Reinhardt and Grappelli!" (my first thought was, "Wow!". 
Peghead - Posted - 09/26/2014: 15:48:32
Personally I'm also for melody based solos. You'll always be safe playing the melody, any good fiddler/ soloist should develop "ears" to pick out and play back a melody on the fly. I have found however, that straight melody, if it's written to be sung, quite often won't be a very dynamic fiddle solo, plus, the singer has already done it. Bored horn players are known to say "meat balls again" when they look at a score with big round black notes and with too many rests in between. If you just play the melody verbatim you're fine, but you won't turn any heads and you run the risk of sounding like a one person string section. Better to grab the defining melody notes and the phrasing and be creative with something fiddleistic. That said, I am also for learning the licks, as many as you can stuff into your head from abecauses many players as you can. It's vocabulary (even if it's someone elses), and it's also fiddle history. Plus you'll learn why a lick works and where from a fiddle craft standpoint. Licks are great if you find one that really fits. You may also have to play them in certain songs because they have become iconic and are expected in some form which is why they endure, but they don't work everywhere. Cutting and pasting something that just fills the hole in the time is mechanical and not very creative musically. Work out your own licks, after all, some fiddler at some point had to compose these things before they become common place. They stuck because they fit so well.
Edited by - Peghead on 09/26/2014 16:10:01
amwildman - Posted - 09/26/2014: 18:23:55
quote:
Originally posted by mackeagan
Whoa, hey, I 'm not saying players actually use any of those terms, at least, not a lot. That's "altering phrases", not "alternating phrases", by which I mean, for example, the last measure of our example hornpipe is usually played, d-f#-d, but the fiddler decides to play d-triplet-d. Although it could be altering in other places, and changing 2 or 3 bars instead of just the ending.
Yes, I get the confusion that using "slide" to describe a semi-tone slide versus the 12/8 "shlide", but most of the local fiddlers in our session wouldn't have a problem with it, if say, you were discussing how you played that f# in bar 1 of Maid Behind the Bar. Anyhow, I don't know about you, but I have a fair bit of difficulty speaking while fiddling so I wouldn't be calling out, "short roll in bar 5" while trying to cruise along at speed.
i've seen Martin Hayes play live with Denny Cahill, and my second thought was, "Reinhardt and Grappelli!" (my first thought was, "Wow!".
I'm with you on the playing and talking thing. I'm doing good to spit out the occasional 'hup' or 'once more'. I'll leave that duty to someone more talented than I if possible.
wrench13 - Posted - 11/03/2014: 07:34:14
Depends on what I'm doing, for me. If Its a BG singing tune, more lick oriented, and solos only keep signature melody phrases, I try and put some surprise phrasing else where in the solo. For fiddle tunes, its keep to the melody, mostly, with some licks or alternate phrasing/notes when the melody is not so strong. Tag licks are important, since everyone wants a big finish!
Buddy of mine always says it don't matter how you start the tune, everyone always remembers the endings though.
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