We play too fast at some of our sessions in Mullingar. The area Martin Hayes comes from is noted for the slow pace of tunes. And then skip over the border to neighboring Kerry and they are notorious for playing fast. It takes all kinds.

As we always said "Fast and loud pleases the crowd, soft and slow, watch them go."
Just a shallow philosophy, perhaps.

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Originally posted by DougD

As we always said "Fast and loud pleases the crowd, soft and slow, watch them go."

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Truth. It's hard to hold their attention when they want to stomp their feet

I don’t like playing end-to-end fast reels one after another…after a couple of sets, I feel like changing it up and doing something else…my ears get tired! I seek out sessions and players who like a variety of expression/speeds…I think I feel the same way about speed as Martin. :-)

You also have to bear in mind that Martin Hayes is predominantly a solo performer. The blue ribbon event in the All Ireland Fleadh competition is the Button accordion which is very closely followed by fiddle (very little between them). On the other hand the highlight of the Fleadh is the ceile band competition. The fiddle is pretty much the backbone of all the ceile bands. Each player in the band has to simplify their playing ie ornamentation to make the unit as a whole work better and they must drive it on to boost the energy of the music. If they all played like Martin Hayes they wouldn’t go anywhere in the competition and alternately if a solo fiddle competitor played at ceile band pace even with all the ornamentation they would be wasting their time in the competition.
What he says about the speed for dancing isn’t correct you can’t hang in the air between steps Irish step dancing needs to be played at a brisk pace.

I think he makes some interesting points. Playing everything at increased tempo can run together too much. I agree that it gets a little dull when you play the same kind of thing over and over. This is why fiddle music is so boring for a lot of non-fiddlers. To keep things interesting and engaging, I think it really helps to have some variety in tempo as well as tune type or key. Players are more aware of shifts to different keys, but listeners aren’t as aware of them and often don’t think of them as a change in context. Having a well thought-out flow of tunes can really make a progression of them work well. Sessions can get stale when random tunes or sets are played back to back because there’s a loss of a sense of direction.

I also think that certain tunes are more stately than others and benefit from a tempo that’s not as elevated. The marking “grave” in music implies this. As Martin illustrates, the more relaxed tempo allows for more deliberate articulation. I would say that it’s possible to play faster with similar articulation, but this often breaks down because a) the player reaches a physical limit and can’t maintain the phrasing above a certain speed or b) the phrasing is maintained at speed but can’t be heard clearly, making it sound muddy (sometimes compounded by room acoustics).

I don’t really like approaches that advocate for everything being fast OR slow. I differ from Hayes a little in that I don’t argue for a general playing speed, but rather one determined by the repertoire and the setting. I think if you’re playing for dances, the tempo is determined by what’s reasonable for the dancers; the speed shouldn’t have them tripping over themselves and struggling to keep in step, but it also shouldn’t make them feel like they’re dragging. The energy of the dancers affects this as well—younger dancers like tempos to be a little faster because they have the energy for it, while older dancers like a more relaxed pace that makes it easier for them to participate longer. As I was saying above, the room itself can have an impact as well. A large room with marble everywhere will just make fast tempos sound cacophonous, while a smaller or more live one will allow for greater clarity at speed. To me, an important part of performance is learning how to assess these things and tailor the playing to the circumstances in which it occurs.

If I was there to dance, I’d prefer a quicker tempo - more drive and energy. If I’m attending a listening event, I’d much prefer a slower more thoughtful tempo for the tunes. In terms of ITM, I’d follow Martin’s lead.

One thing to bear in mind is that Martin Hayes does not pose any kind of a threat to fast playing; it's not like everyone is going to listen to him and adapt his approach - even if they tried, there would still be many unable to resist the impulse to speed up.

I heard Martin (and Dennis) in Kansas City several years ago. They played slow ones...fast ones...and everything in between...but certainly nothing nothing half-ast.

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

One thing to bear in mind is that Martin Hayes does not pose any kind of a threat to fast playing; it's not like everyone is going to listen to him and adapt his approach - even if they tried, there would still be many unable to resist the impulse to speed up.

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In other words Martin is the master of slow! A pure pleasure to listen to. I remember passing through the Mullingar Cathedral during the Fleadh a few of years ago and there he was doing a sound check. WOW! His local ceili band I think is the Tulla and when he joins in with them it's pretty likely. He's well able to turn on the pace when he has to!  Great player. 

Yep Martin can GO when he wants to! He could leave many "fast" players in the dust if he chooses to. So "slow" is a deliberate artistic choice in his case...

The Dancing is less of a thing here in the USA (sadly) and mostly we play for a listening/hanging out crowd. We get as much enthusiasm for the slow sad tunes as for fast pumping reels...maybe because they can easily hear eachother talk for a while...haha...but I like to think it's because they appreciate the sweetness of fiddle & flute and hearing the intricate, gorgeous chords our guitar player can pull out when he's not busy thrashing out beats...:-)

I think the man that has nailed a good balance is Dublin native Paddy Glackin. He and his brother Kevin? (I think).

We always mix things up in performances, whether for a dance crowd or a sit down type show. Yes audiences like the brisk ones, but variety is......

A good solid up tempo reel followed by a 3/4 ballad then by a Scottish aire and then a fast jig. Keep 'em guessing. Since we never work with a set list, just a list of like 120 or so numbers, we pick based on crowd.

i can appreciate what a master fiddler he is.....But i feel sea sick listening to him for too long. a bit like if i listened to too much schmaltzy gypsy fiddle. And i feel he has lost the simple drive in the schmaltz when he plays fast...I know it's Heresy, because he really is an Irish fiddle deity, But there it is...I've said it now...

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

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Originally posted by DougD

As we always said "Fast and loud pleases the crowd, soft and slow, watch them go."

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Truth. It's hard to hold their attention when they want to stomp their feet

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When entertaining you need to pace the flow of the overall music. A slower piece is always a welcome change but many slower tunes are better for dinner music. Doug and his old bunch nailed the fast and loud and still stuck songs in between those tunes to vary the flow of the show.

Well, while we're on the subject, I just came across this comparison of fast and slow, from Tim Chaisson, who's from a noted family of Prince Edward Island fiddlers:  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/e41CCy6sT6w

I hope this thread doesn't give the uninitiated the notion that Martin Hayes plays everything slow because that's simply not true. I've heard him play really fast and intensely - so much so that sometimes you'd fear for his health!

Tim illustrates well what I would say about speed-- at some point you sacrifice a lot of the fun bits of a tune. It's about the journey not the destination! Our session plays many of the familiar tunes way too fast and a bit mindless, but the listeners seem to enjoy that ("fast and loud pleases the crowd"). But I guess I'm part of the problem , since last session I started a polka set and decided to set a blistering speed just for fun. My only defense is that some polkas just want to go fast!

The better pieces of Classical Music have a true understanding of how and when to alter tempo to keep things interesting. It's part of what makes it seem as if the music is telling stories instead of just marching along rattling off cliches. The same goes for the more emotionally involving jazz and pop music albums. It also adds interest to vary key signatures as the evening progresses...something that's unfortunately difficult to do if you're cross-tuned.

When I saw Martin it was in KC at a venue called the 1900 Building with a small formal stage. Small audience, served wine, a listening room...he didn't use his normal electronics at this show which was nice... because his tone was human after all...I even heard him squeak once or twice...haha  He plays these types of rooms, churches, universities and not so much festivals. So that's a much different setting than a festival setting. That kind of audience is there for the music, isn't talking or socializing, and the "slow" stuff was taken in just as much as the "fast". My favorite kind of concert... I'll be attending some of their events later this year https://1900bldg.com/all-events  

I love to listen to Martin Hayes and OFTEN play his "Maghera Mountain'' tune.. It is a great busking tune..
That being said, I've been busking to 'California BLues' lately.. Also very popular..

Martin’s comments resonate with me.

Racehorse tempo doesn’t interest me very much. It’s fine and fun in small doses, but faster-faster-faster does seem to mash out melodic nuance. And demonstrating my (lack of) virtuosity isn’t much of a priority for me.

When playing by myself, I like playing fiddle tunes at varying tempos. The energy of fast dance-tempo is great, and when the tune slows down the harmonies of drones and double stops come out better, also the melody can show its color and character. Slower tempo works particularly well with cross-tuning, where the harmonies are easily accessible.

I do recognize that this approach is somewhat self-indulgent and not very practical in organized jams, but I do find it quite satisfying.

I’ve been thinking about this topic since this thread was introduced and in the meantime I’ve attended at least a dozen sessions. Ok so I like listening to a tune played at an easy pace as Martin suggests. The funny thing is that an easy relaxed pace for one person playing a tune can be poles apart from what another naturally wants to play. Three players at Friday night’s session were jumping from one reel to the next at such ease that they were calling out the keys and names, conversing with each other and asking for pints of Guinness as they were playing. The music definitely wasn’t rushed, it had all the variations, rolls, triplets and dynamics and it was fast and it felt right. I think everyone has their own natural pace and we should stay true to that. There may be a bit more variation in the speed we play depending upon what mood we’re in but essentially I think that we’re better off forgetting about what other people think and play at a tempo that’s comfortable for us. Most of the times I start off tunes at Martins pace by the end of second time through the tempo has increased and that is a BIG No No!! then on some occasions when I’m in the right mood I just play that way naturally from end to end. From now on I’m not going to care what people think if I’m too slow or fast. I’ll speed up to join in with the hot shots and if I notice someone struggling to catch up I’ll ease it down a bit. Otherwise I’ll lead off with what I think is right.

"The funny thing is that an easy relaxed pace for one person playing a tune can be poles apart from what another naturally wants to play." I find that my own sense of pace changes with the years, place, context, etc. When I first heard Lee Cremo's playing, on an album I bought when I was about 19, I felt it was 'way too fast (and that was a complaint you would occasionally hear about his playing) - but when I listen to those same recordings now, they just seem "lively", but not excessively so, by any means. Here's his recording of Miss MacLeod's, played at about the same pace as Tim Chaisson's "fast" demo, but Lee gets more out of it, although it's probably not fair to compare the two recordings, which are made in very different circumstances for very different purposes (btw, the country/rock accompaniment was unique at the time):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko_ZdMyvBM4&list=RDxo-mQ8XII0k&index=6

Successful fast playing is also dependent on finding and staying within the pocket. I’ve heard performances which sounded as though the players were playing at an easy pace, but when attempting to match their speed, I discovered that in fact they were moving along quite briskly.