I haven’t seen the app and tested it out, but from your description it sounds like a handy tool for organization. I agree that the spreadsheet approach can become unwieldy easily. The roulette feature sounds like a nice way to get ideas when you’re stuck at a jam and I like the idea of being able to search with filters for key or other tags. Just being able to filter by selecting key and tune type at the same time could be a big help.

I see the concept as one that would be handy for any fiddling style with a sizable archive of tunes. 

Thanks! It's definitely been useful for me. I'd geared it towards Old Time musicians to start (since that's what I know most) but yeah I think a lot of trad genre players could get use out of it.

I plan to support chord charts and ABC notation at some point, which I know Irish players user the latter a good bit.

THis sounds very handy, and I love the idea of shaking my phone to have a tune come out!

(Currently I am using ForScore and most of the players around here do too…it may be your biggest competitor? but it doesn’t have audio files or the tune shake, it just functions as a searchable/sortable PDF sheet music database. )

I will check out your app!

Interesting! I haven't heard of ForScore. Do you know Old Time musicians using that or is it typically different styles? Looks like a pretty nice app.

If you wind up trying TuneSheet, feel free to email me if I can help (carter@tunesheet.com). If you've got a big list of tunes to load in there too, I am happy to get it started for you. Like I said, it'll give me some help building tools for doing bulk tune imports.

Hey Carter!!!

The program I have used for years - even my days "up there" - has been Mtrax. The owner / developer passed a number years back and the program is not being supported. But - I still use it (running right now). As much as I have looked for one, I haven't found anything with comparable features. Still working though - and still looking.

I'll check out what you have - and ask: are you looking to do more with it?

...best wishes for success my friend!

Hey Carter, sorry didn't get to play tunes with in Juneau...  looked like hands were full  (congrats dad). Fun dancing at Red Dog.

I'm not much of a data/list app user, but Johnse is... he might be good candidate for this, with lots of good feedback. I will pass this along to him. 

Just a few thoughts: What we might find use is to quick and easily come up with a set list... we just use notes and share that; have tried integrating it with some other apps... it is a little unwieldy with a large repertoire. If some way to scroll quickly tap and add as a setlist would be great. Those other apps do offer chord chart and lyrics, as well as arrangement notes.

I know that for many of us older players, use their phone to recall how a tune starts (or the B part)... have the recording on itunes... so would be great if could just go to that with simple click.

Good luck

Another interesting app that Catlin Warbelow showed me, is like Shazam but for Irish tunes... recognize melody of what's being played then tells the name. Not sure if exists for OT.

tunepal is the app I was trying to recall.

This is a neat product, thanks for building it and for sharing. I've been thinking about doing something similar, either as web app (easier) or otherwise. If Notion were a little bit more stable, I would set up a fancy template there, but it's just not quite right most of the time.

Server and storage costs are certainly not nothing and it sounds like the data is stored remotely. For scenes like old time (where folks cooler than I am camp often), local storage would probably be a huge plus. Does the iOS version keep things on the phone/is it accessible when cell connections are weak? Perhaps that could support a "pay for it once" model, too. I paid for Transcribe! [1] a long time ago and it's been one of the best music software investments I've ever made. Now, they should have probably charged me again even if you only consider compatibility upgrades.

I'd also jump right on if there were a free version with paid upgrades (like the fiddle tune roulette or the "jump to the B section" that a previous commenter mentioned). To go through the trouble to import for something I may cancel is just a bit tougher. But I don't really know enough tunes to move away from my pages in a notebook yet! That's my fault, I guess!

Congrats on a cool project. It's always so fun to see what folks make because they want to!

[1]: seventhstring.com/

Oh! And forScore is pretty fantastic. I recently made the switch to the 21st century with an iPad for sheet music heavy gigs and it's great for that. That's the point, after all: things like pit orchestras and the like. But it's really nice to have all of my transcriptions of fiddle and banjo tunes together, too. If you take care with tagging, you can keep a solid list.

The problem is that I don't transcribe all of the tunes I learn, so you only end up with a partial list, which isn't super helpful in jams. (Plus, it's usually the ones that are a bit weirder that I bother transcribing, things with a few crooked turns that are easier to work out by jotting them down. So not always the best for jams, anyhow.)

tonyelder What is mTrax? A search led to software related to fitness music, is that what you're talking about? What were the features that you haven't found elsewhere?

Tony, so good to hear from you! I haven't heard of Mtrax and I'm not sure I've found the right one. Can you share a link to the app you're using? I'd love to check it out.

I am definitely looking to do more with it. Right now it's an experiment and if the desire isn't there from users I might not be able to keep it going but I want to give it an honest try. What more things do you feel like would make it valuable?

I hope life's treating you well. Ever find yourself back in AK these days?

Hey George, yes, hands were full! Thank you, it's been a wild ride. Glad you enjoyed the Red Dog set, that was a hoot and I was glad to be able to get that in with the baby in our world. So hard to get everything in at Juneau in any case. We'll try to get some tunes in next year, if not sooner!

Thanks for passing it along to Johnse. I didn't know he'd be the guy to reach out to. That "how does it go" feature is something I really want to implement. Right now you can get to your recordings with a couple clicks but I want to make it easier. I had also considered the set list thing so that's good validation to hear it's something you'd want.

TunePal is a trip. I love that app. I had it in my head that it was originally started based on someone's PhD thesis or something but I could be making that up. I think it's grant funded, which I've also considered for this.

@cjwit thanks for the response! That's all good to hear and I appreciate the feedback. One thing I was considering was to have a "pay once" model for the app but have it be entirely offline only and then when it moves into sharing data outside of your phone it's the subscription fee. I wonder how that strikes you?

The iOS version is not offline yet though it's in the works. Recordings are actually stored on device first so you don't have to stream them but that's the only thing yet. The rest of it should be entirely usable offline soon though.

Carter Very cool! Yeah, I imagine that the collection of features you're thinking about make for some options in a freemium model. It seems like something along these lines could do well in the "open source/free-but with sync features that you pay for" format, too. Something like Obsidian, perhaps. I know that with forScore, syncing is really useful since it's easier to input text on the computer, but a phone-only option would get most users most of the way there. It's clear what you're paying for, then (servers and storage for syncing), but a casual user would be more inclined to start with the free version. That would be especially compelling if there were ample import/export options for things like markdown, csv, and whatnot.

I don't know how the economics of something like that would work, though. My understanding is that Strum Machine has something like this (free to use, but paid to create, so teachers, for example, can make lists for their students), but again, I paid for iReal pro a while back and found it worthwhile.

I think my instinct is open source first (I work in the academic world, though, so I have union health insurance!). I'm always keen to see how folks make things like this work for them. It's a tough balance and everyone (and everything) are in a different spot. Doesn't it seem like this should be open to a grant? Like from IBMA or something? Or one of the Irish organizations?

On that, if you don't have it on the radar already, as your screen shots show "add to lists", an Irish community I play with makes heavy use of forScore's nested setlists. So you can have a set—two or three tunes in a row as is common in Irish music—that go into a setlist—a set of tunes for a gig. I found that to be a compelling feature for trad scenes. But feature bloat is real...

And a final aside before I try and get back to work: one of the screen shots had "Come on old paint, get up that hill," which I'd heard of and forgot about. I think it's time to learn it since I love me some weird tune names.

@cjwit ah man, Come On Old Paint is so good. Love that tune!

Yeah, you're hitting the nail on the head there.

Strum Machine is actually a product that gave me some hope that there might be an appetite for a subscription model. I don't think there's any free option for that app unless I've totally missed it. I'd considered grant funding too. Oof, it feels draining to go that route but maybe that's a good option.

My inclination is to charge something small for the app but there's obvious tension between that and getting people using the thing. There's also a heavy lift of just getting your tunes into the app. I've got a bulk add tool but I also want to build import/export features like you mentioned.

I see the Alaskans are connecting! :-)

PS - Carter, there are some really techie guys in Irish Trad ... as a fellow techie, you might get a kick out of his page for putting together tune sets! I actually bookmarked this, it's fun to poke around for ideas.

Trad Tune Explorer

( We've come a long way from sitting around the fireplace…sometimes I find it a weird juxtaposition that we are playing music from rural old 1800s, but with the use of all this cool sophisticated tech :-) 

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/11308= an early post here from back in 2009 - where I talk about using mTrax.  The link is no longer active to the Terrasofta site (developer). 

https://mtrax.updatestar.com/en is one of the few sites that offer a download for mTrax.  A few things to be aware of:  1) the obvious - 3rd party can be risky when it comes to virus and maleware. Know who you are dealing with. 2) The program is no longer supported. 3) Perhaps the biggest caution - Terrasotfa is no longer in business. The version that you are able to download is probably going to be the trail version - limited function of the features. And - I'm pretty sure you won't be able to purchase a license to unlock the features. Who would you be paying money to?  Who would give you the key?  And if you run into problems, who are you going to call for support.  But even with limited functions - it is worth checking out. 

Having said all that - I will still say today  - like I said back in 2009 - this is THE VERY BEST MUSICIAN'S PRACTICE TOOL THAT HAS EVER BEEN AVAILABLE  ANYWHERE!!!!   That is not hyperbole. I'm dead serious.  I challenge anyone to show me a better one - at any price. I am still amazed that it never become the most popular musician's practice software on the market. And the most amazing thing is that - even now - there is still no programs out there that have all these features - NONE!  .

LOL.... I sometimes think - I have been the only one to use it!  That is crazy!!!!   ...sorry you guys missed it.  

I don't mind talking like this here - in Carter's post. Carter is a good friend. We have known each other before 2009. I wish him well. This program will never compete with what he is doing - not in its current situation. 

My only reason for mentioning mTrax:  I don't know how much longer my copy of mTrax is going to continue working with the operating systems as they upgrade. Sooner or later - I won't have mTrax without a dedicated "old machine" to run it on.  Hopefully. the program doesn't get corrupted. And that is why I have been continually looking for a replacement - and why I know (right now) there isn't one. 

Anyway - Carter - if you have the kind of ambition to create something like this - you have my support. I will buy it!!!

I'm not sure why someone hasn't tried to aquire mTrax from whoever has rights to it.....     I'll shut up now.

This deserves to be clarified a bit: "This program will never compete with what he is doing - not in its current situation."

tunesheet and mTrax can be used to do a few of the same things, in moderately different ways. But it is easy to see that they are aimed at different targets.

tunesheet has been developed an app designed mostly for smartphones - to be used at sessions - with features useful for collaborating with others (sharing). And I use my phone at sessions all the time - just for this reason. "Help me remember what I can't recall in the moment, and give me a tool that will help me later when I want to go back and work on things."

mTrax will not work on a smartphone and is aimed in a different direction / more towards individual practice / and learning routines at home.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

Having said all that - I will still say today  - like I said back in 2009 - this is THE VERY BEST MUSICIAN'S PRACTICE TOOL THAT HAS EVER BEEN AVAILABLE  ANYWHERE!!!!   That is not hyperbole. I'm dead serious.  I challenge anyone to show me a better one - at any price. I am still amazed that it never become the most popular musician's practice software on the market. And the most amazing thing is that - even now - there is still no programs out there that have all these features - NONE!  .

---

That's some gargantuan hyperbole. If any tool were to be selected as the best practice tool in history for a musician, the metronome would be the obvious choice, as it has been a standard device for musicians for hundreds of years, even before electricity or apps were in use.

Having different organizational features and methods for manipulating recordings can certainly be handy, but those features are not nearly as vital to progress as using a metronome.

I have heard a number of players at Irish sessions mention the use of ForScore for tune organization. That app was advertised to classical players several years ago and seems to have made its way into the Irish fiddle world as a popular tool. A lot of things that have become standard in fiddling have been adopted from classical music. For that reason I wonder if it would benefit the app that's the subject of this thread to present it to the wider violin world more heavily and hope that it also finds its way into fiddling communities. 

quote:

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Originally posted by Carter

Thanks for passing it along to Johnse. I didn't know he'd be the guy to reach out to. That "how does it go" feature is something I really want to implement. Right now you can get to your recordings with a couple clicks but I want to make it easier. I had also considered the set list thing so that's good validation to hear it's something you'd want.

TunePal is a trip. I love that app. I had it in my head that it was originally started based on someone's PhD thesis or something but I could be making that up. I think it's grant funded, which I've also considered for this.

---

Johnse is a Hydrologist... he likes keeping track of data, so keeps a log of tunes, by key.  I notice he and some others like Scotty; starting to use phone for to a list of tunes they heard at a jam... as reminder what caught their attention, esp at a ADAD tune session. FWIW, Peter said that Dylan was helping pass along your project at the festival.

Yep, I found out years ago that developing phone apps, getting them approved and marketed... gets expensive. Not as easy as desktop Linux and Github environment. Years ago we were working on phone app prototype with "how does it go" feature using abc files, required very little storage as just simple text files; and were we working with some of vast Irish session libraries for developing the app with that feature and some others, including an integrated quick online search. We abandoned that, as unfortunately we were not forward thinkers, it was J2ME architecture... so... turned out not much continued demand for that.

But, using abc might be easier way to implement that feature. It requires the abc library... I suppose maybe with the tunearch.org? I was thinking of possibly maybe working with Slippery Hill, as that is for me often my goto these days for a reference... seems similar to some of your goals. I like that it's searchable by tuning, not just key; be nice to find a similar banjo resource.

Anyway, seems for jams, the features  "how does it go" and "what is this tune" and "what are the chords" and "what tuning, or if/what other tunes fit this tuning"; seem like a bit of interest. 

I also recall Tunepal being some PhD from Penn State... and was open source, at one time could download the pdf and go over the algorithms. I also recall how that it wouldn't recognize banjo playing for Irish music..  Along those lines of listening... of course future thinking... using AI and phone/device listening all the time... to have app that listens shouts out the chords (four, seven, minor)... changes chord "here", or "you're rushing/dragging"... to  just blurts out "that's wrong key/tuning"; "that's not how it goes!"; "that's not how Earl played it"... 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

Having said all that - I will still say today  - like I said back in 2009 - this is THE VERY BEST MUSICIAN'S PRACTICE TOOL THAT HAS EVER BEEN AVAILABLE  ANYWHERE!!!!   That is not hyperbole. I'm dead serious.  I challenge anyone to show me a better one - at any price. I am still amazed that it never become the most popular musician's practice software on the market. And the most amazing thing is that - even now - there is still no programs out there that have all these features - NONE!  .

---

That's some gargantuan hyperbole. If any tool were to be selected as the best practice tool in history for a musician, the metronome would be the obvious choice, as it has been a standard device for musicians for hundreds of years, even before electricity or apps were in use.

---

...well, I guess I should feel silly now.    Thanks Rch!

quote:

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Originally posted by cjwit

Oh! And forScore is pretty fantastic. I recently made the switch to the 21st century with an iPad for sheet music heavy gigs and it's great for that. That's the point, after all: things like pit orchestras and the like. But it's really nice to have all of my transcriptions of fiddle and banjo tunes together, too. If you take care with tagging, you can keep a solid list.

The problem is that I don't transcribe all of the tunes I learn, so you only end up with a partial list, which isn't super helpful in jams. (Plus, it's usually the ones that are a bit weirder that I bother transcribing, things with a few crooked turns that are easier to work out by jotting them down. So not always the best for jams, anyhow.)

tonyelder What is mTrax? A search led to software related to fitness music, is that what you're talking about? What were the features that you haven't found elsewhere?

---

look up a few and you will see where I answered Carter with a link.  

Sorry my friend. I didn't know you had asked until I check email and saw that you had directed a comment towards me. 

mTrax on YouTube

Again - please note: this program is not longer being sold or supported.  But this will demonstrate some of what it was able to do. 

Apologies to Carter . I'm through high jacking your subject. I appreciate your patience.  

 

I think one of the biggest hurdles is finding something that can be used long-term. With any app or other type of software, there’s always the risk that it will stop being supported at some point. This is a big concern if you’re looking for something to use as an archival tool.

Especially with apps, system updates can really throw a wrench into things as a trusted app can stop working overnight. For it to really work out, the developer has to be willing to jump through all the hoops to stay up to date.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I think one of the biggest hurdles is finding something that can be used long-term. With any app or other type of software, there’s always the risk that it will stop being supported at some point. This is a big concern if you’re looking for something to use as an archival tool.

Especially with apps, system updates can really throw a wrench into things as a trusted app can stop working overnight. For it to really work out, the developer has to be willing to jump through all the hoops to stay up to date.

---

...and it helps when they don't die from cancer.

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting in the forum.  I saw there was interest in an offline quick tune lookup tool.  I have such a free tool here.  Works on any device.  The first time you load the page it will download a small file to your device.  Then if you go offline it works with the local data.



Hope some people find it useful.

All the best Martin