Love it when he bows the bass!

Wow, that's pretty chipper. We always sang that one really slowly and nostalgically. I've never heard it played that fast.

Had a full critique written out. Deleted it. Not a fan.

Put this version against a 4 person singing quartet that knows what its doing. No contest.

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Originally posted by wrench13

Had a full critique written out. Deleted it. Not a fan.

Put this version against a 4 person singing quartet that knows what its doing. No contest.

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I think it would be far more interesting and useful if you shared a critique. If the original was too harshly worded, perhaps one that you aren't worried about posting could be written. 

Right, here we go. First the mix is pretty bad, with little separation and volumes going up and down. The fiddle(s) and banjo lost in the back except for one short section. Lead singer volume is all over the place. Banjo might as well not be playing. A lot is because of this throbbing almost punk rock steady beat; no dynamics here or anywhere for that matter. As to the treatment of this melody, with the guitar also trying for a punk kind of sound, its rudimentary and the first thing people try when trying to rock up folk or other genres. No new interesting chords or passing work and the singer sounds like he's trying mess round with the phrasing too. Middling singer, with a goofy pseudo pirate outfit on. They could have Ramoned it up further, with heavy metal vocals. That would be different.

A swing and a miss, for me.

I love that tune. I haven't played it in a while, but I'll certainly play it again. I first encountered it on a Byrds LP I bought new, 'way back when in the Mid Nineteen Sixties. It was one of the tunes that prompted me to play the guitar.

The song is performed at the Pub Sing at the Maryland Renaissance Festival at the end of every day. At that venue it’s played slower and more in the traditional style.

Interestingly, two of the people in the video play at the Renaissance Festival, and one of them plays fiddle at the Pub Sing.

Interesting version, a different take on it!
I’m a hard sell here, because I have heard so many lovely versions of this song….But it was fun to listen!

( And like Ed, it was in the handful of first tunes I played/sang on guitar :-)

I think the point about dynamic range is important because the use of the loop pedal forces things to be at the same level—unless someone is actively adjusting levels on a mixing board. But since the leader of the group is using the pedal board, it’s not practical for him to stop playing and tinker with things during a tune or song. In that sense it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered.

The stomp pedal is something that has become more popular for players who play for crowds. It’s a way to reinforce the beat for listeners without having a drummer present. If you’re a one-man show, it allows for foot tapping to be turned into a more audible rhythm. As I understand it, Brandon’s use of the pedal is a product of his busking days more than his days of playing punk rock.

"...it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered."

wow... let's move along folks, nothing here.

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Originally posted by tonyelder

"...it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered."

wow... let's move along folks, nothing here.

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Why be so dismissive? It's a commonly acknowledged point that there isn't dynamic variety in Old Time. It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. 

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

"...it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered."

wow... let's move along folks, nothing here.

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Why be so dismissive? It's a commonly acknowledged point that there isn't dynamic variety in Old Time. It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. 

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LOL. If that is all you have heard, then you must be telling me - the only friends you keep company with are - - - "common".    

I wonder what the results would be - if we took a pole here and asked the question.  Of course something like that might reveal folks around here to be "uncommonly" astute. ...and then we might get to observe what dismissive really looks like. 

Thanks Rich.

A couple quotes come to mind here. The first:

There are two dynamics in Old Time music:
1. Loud—when you’re playing
2. Quiet—when you’re not playing

The second:
One of the easiest ways to spot a classically trained player is to listen for the use of dynamics to play tunes

I’m honored to have the friends I do, whether you think they’re “common” or not.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

A couple quotes come to mind here. The first:

There are two dynamics in Old Time music:
1. Loud—when you’re playing
2. Quiet—when you’re not playing

The second:
One of the easiest ways to spot a classically trained player is to listen for the use of dynamics to play tunes

I’m honored to have the friends I do, whether you think they’re “common” or not.

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Wrong bait.      

IIMHO - in the context of old time, dynamics are not a huge part of it - when being performed for its main original role, as dance music. When being played entirely for listening pleasure ie concert, I hear bands using it to highlight harmony work, when changing tunes in the set, and separate vocals a bit.

However the thread is not about old time. The tune is an adaptation of a Scots tune, so common now its almost a trope. Personally, I hit the lavatory when a band starts playing it. One of the 'Dueling Banjo' tunes of Renn festivals.

First to point out, it's not really a traditional Irish song. Rather composed and popularized in mid 20th century; (though borrowing from older Scottish Airs).

Mostly what stood out to me, doesn't seem to actually be performing "live" context; rather multi-tracked, post edited and mixed in a studio; goal as modern social media product. With that overall focus does seem more on production for that. My focus got drawn more to that production, rather than idea of good live musical/vocal performance. To be fair, that video probably has different goal(s), and audience.

The production is fairly modernish if not formulaic; not particularly unique; reminds me of a lot of Berklee type production. Quantization, clean, processing, editing; layered textures and low end. Reminds me of a bit retro layered pop vibe with hint of EDM.  Driven by the relentless quantized drum machine kick, forward focus in the mix; as well as some other part textures forward; one is that low mid thunky part (sitting between bass and higher guitar parts); possibly it's the banjo; but processed; that and many other parts (inc violin) sounding a bit like what would do more with synth layers. I didn't notice the vocals being all over the place volume, a bit of opposite, it's sameness. Though perhaps due to this type of modern production/mix perhaps does seem to less focus less on vocal/lead parts sitting in front of mix; tend to fill up sound space with layers, giving more smooth ambient wash of parts, lack of separation, somewhat flatter sound; nothing standing out. The vocal/lead just bit as another textured layer. Also employs cut/paste step/repeat loops, a common modern practice with DAW (loop pedal is moot, in studio recording, can just make backing tracks); which can also flatten the overall sound texture. All of that might be what contributing to sense of lack dynamics; song sections - the verses, chorus and breaks all have a flat sameness to them. 

That said, I wouldn't necessarily say the mix is bad, if that was the goal; the end product possibly fits and is fairly well produced for goal, as social media product; aimed to get fair amount of views.

As far as punk, I don't really don't get that vibe at all, pretty different than what punk band would do; but probably was not the goal. But along that line of interesting versions, might be interested in this live performance https://youtu.be/BjV2IE0MYNQ.

I can understand the appeal, but the lead singer sounds like someone who can't sing and change chords at the same time. Which is probably true because after he stops playing guitar his singing becomes more fluid. The rest just seem over-dramatized and over-produced.

Like I said, I understand the appeal, but it isn't something I'd listen to again.

If you're curious about the actual history of this song, there's an interesting (and slightly confusing) article at Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Mountain_Thyme
If you follow some of the footnotes you can see some of the earlier printed versions. Its astonishing how many recordings have been made of the song, by everyone from the Byrds to Ed Sheeran. To me, it was interesting to read that Francis McPeake "gifted" the song to Maggi Peirce, who brought it to the US when she emigrated to Massachusetts. I think this means that he taught it to her, not that he awarded her the copyright. I knew Maggi slightly from her appearances at the National Storytelling Festival when I was providing sound reinforcement, although I don't remember her ever singing it. What I do remember is how much her Belfast accent reminded me of my grandfather, who was also from Ulster.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

"...it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered."

wow... let's move along folks, nothing here.

---

Why be so dismissive? It's a commonly acknowledged point that there isn't dynamic variety in Old Time. It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. 

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I think we are using the word “dynamics” differently. A very brief definition might be: “That's not how it's played.” 

A musician’s decisions about how a song / a tune will be played — loudness, tempo, intensity, articulation, overall energy define the “dynamics”, even if none of that changes once the music starts. A change just means you’ve moved to a different dynamic level.

So by definition, every tune ever played — old?time included — has dynamics by default. You literally will never play a tune or song without dynamics. Which means the idea that Old Time musicians don’t "consider dynamics” or that the genre doesn't have “dynamic variety” doesn’t hold water.

…just trying to keep us all on the same page so we don’t accidentally insult a whole genre of musicians who are out there doing their best just to “give them folks a smile”.

In musical terms, "dynamics" means changes in volume, whether abrupt or gradual, up or down.
You can read more about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_(music)

PS - The AI summary added this: "These volume changes, from very soft (pianissimo, pp) to very loud (fortissimo, ff), add depth, texture, and feeling to music, making it more engaging and less monotonous." I think this is what Rich was referring to.

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

"...it’s more like Old Time, where dynamics are not considered."

wow... let's move along folks, nothing here.

---

Why be so dismissive? It's a commonly acknowledged point that there isn't dynamic variety in Old Time. It wasn't a criticism, just an observation. 

---

I think we are using the word “dynamics” differently. A very brief definition might be: “That's not how it's played.” 

A musician’s decisions about how a song / a tune will be played — loudness, tempo, intensity, articulation, overall energy define the “dynamics”, even if none of that changes once the music starts. A change just means you’ve moved to a different dynamic level.

So by definition, every tune ever played — old?time included — has dynamics by default. You literally will never play a tune or song without dynamics. Which means the idea that Old Time musicians don’t "consider dynamics” or that the genre doesn't have “dynamic variety” doesn’t hold water.

…just trying to keep us all on the same page so we don’t accidentally insult a whole genre of musicians who are out there doing their best just to “give them folks a smile”.

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Yes, completely different definitions. I was referring to musical dynamics, which are variations in volume from ppp to fff and markings that accompany them to show a change, either abruptly or over time ( sfz vs. crescendo). At one time markings weren't written in, and it was up to the player to follow the conventions of the time or improvise, but as technology changed and it became possible for instruments like the piano to change volume, more specific markings were intentionally written in.
 

In the lively country dance setting where fiddling was born, there wasn't room to change dynamics much because the dancers needed to be able to hear the music that was often supplied by only one fiddler, perhaps even using a pochette. There might be variations in voicing, ornamentation, or instrumentation, but not in musical dynamics in this kind of fiddling. We must keep in mind that fiddlers were often playing in spaces that weren't great for acoustics, so they really needed to focus on being loud enough (in the age before amplification). This is a reason why fiddlers often chose instruments that were so strident--they needed to be edgy enough to cut through the sound of the other instruments.

I don't see a player's personal choices of expression as dynamics. I'd call that interpretation. If you're talking about a player playing dynamically in the Greek sense of the word, I'd say that a dynamic player is demonstrating ability or drive, but that's distinct from dynamics and has more to do with the player's musical personality than the music itself. By that definition I would agree that there are many dynamic players in Old Time. 

Agreed with Doug...in my experience "dynamics" is a musical term that refers to changes in volume i.e. playing softer on the repeat, getting louder at the end, etc. For example, a conductor will signal these changes to the orchestra with his gestures (shushing hands for playing softer, enthusiastic arm waves to play louder, etc).

With playing tunes, I've made a conscious practice of playing "flatter" (mostly at one volume throughout).

I didn't particularly like it. The sound has too much compression which not only reduces dynamics but makes everything pulse together heavily. No breathing room.

Takes me back to my plastic Irish pub days with great drums and bass and loads of volume, Digital delay electric fiddle etc.... Punters loved it. I got tinnitus..... "Marie's Wedding" Reggae style, rockin modal reels etc..... Nothing new..... And good luck to em.... Go for it!... Nice shirt btw.