Saves alot of trouble by just making up a name, on the spot. Never play the same thing twice? Easy! "Oh that's Dangleberries Hornpipe."
Better yet, call something a reel or Hornpipe when it's not. Hard to do this for Waltz tunes.

I have the most trouble if a tune isn't in the common key. Often gets a different title.

"Jones, how does One Dip Dumpling go?" They are going to get a version Paddy on the Turnpike. Then, when you seriously do know the name, they often don't believe me. Ah! My job is done!

I'm taking that as "tongue in cheek".      But - I could go on about that too - how close "Black Jack Grove" (Art Stamper) is to "Devil In The Haystack" (Gary Harrison) is to "Where Did You Get That Hat?" (also Garry Harrison) - I guess the differences are enough, but...  It would be eay to play a medley of the 3.   An audience might totally miss what you just did.

We decide to play "Devil In The Haystack" - because the name is "cool". 

I get teased - because I will say - "let's play Snake Chapman's Johnny Don't Get Drunk" that makes the title unique - identifiable, but - for some reason, it doesn't stick. But it's the best I can do. And it seems the consensus is - if we are going to play "Johnny Don't Get Drunk" - we need to play the "official" version (and even that has 2 different version of the b part).   Perhaps we need to name it "Johnny Got Drunk" - as a sequel. 

Giving it a totally different name - means no one else would know what going on. No one will be able to find / hear it except when I (we) are playing it - to know what it is. And now there is ANOTHER variation.    - why not!

Don't ya just love it. 

I understand tunes that are passed down by ear, and not written down, getting changed some in the process but I sure wonder about all of the completly different versions of tunes like--Polly{Molly} Put The Kettle On and Fire On The Mountain. How does that happen?

I'm guessin' here but thinkin' some of the versions that have survived through the decades and centuries are versions somebody souped up to try to win at a contest along the way.

And I always figured passing down tunes was sorta like that little game they played in grade school...teacher whispers a simple sentence to the first student and by the time it gets passed all through the classroom everybody has a good laugh at how much it had changed.

The problem is easily fixable! Since we and our fellow Fiddle Hangout folks are by far Planet Earth's most authoritative bunch concerning all things Old Time Fiddling, we just need to vote on what title goes with which tune. I humbly accept your sincere agreement regarding this matter. As for the Martians, they can make their own choices.

Over the decades I've concluded that there is no such a thing as a 'tune'. Rather there are ideas that are expressed differently by different musicians.. with the exception of a tune that has an author who says that "MY way" is the only correct way to play My tune...I like that saying, "I've never played the same tune Once."

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Over the decades I've concluded that there is no such a thing as a 'tune'. Rather there are ideas that are expressed differently by different musicians.. with the exception of a tune that has an author who says that "MY way" is the only correct way to play My tune...I like that saying, "I've never played the same tune Once."

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" "MY way" is the only correct way to play My tune" ....But hey are beginners no matter how long they have been playing, or how "good" they are imo.

And then there is the well know artist who plays a live performance of a song or tune they recorded, and 99% of time - the live version might be, sometimes, somewhat similar to, a little bit like their recorded version - maybe.

But not always.  

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Originally posted by tonyelder

And then there is the well know artist who plays a live performance of a song or tune they recorded, and 99% of time - the live version might be, sometimes, somewhat similar to, a little bit like their recorded version - maybe.

But not always.  

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i don't get that is that a good or a bad thing...?

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

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Originally posted by tonyelder

And then there is the well know artist who plays a live performance of a song or tune they recorded, and 99% of time - the live version might be, sometimes, somewhat similar to, a little bit like their recorded version - maybe.

But not always.  

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i don't get that is that a good or a bad thing...?

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well - of course it is.  

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

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Originally posted by tonyelder

And then there is the well know artist who plays a live performance of a song or tune they recorded, and 99% of time - the live version might be, sometimes, somewhat similar to, a little bit like their recorded version - maybe.

But not always.  

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i don't get that is that a good or a bad thing...?

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I'm always extremely suspicious when I hear descriptions like that because they sound like a very convenient way for a player to explain away issues like memory slips, missed notes, or confusion.

"I meant to do it that way" is a get-out-of-jail-free card for "artists."

That doesn't mean everyone that plays differently each time is cheating, just that I have to wonder whenever I hear anything along those lines. 

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

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Originally posted by tonyelder

And then there is the well know artist who plays a live performance of a song or tune they recorded, and 99% of time - the live version might be, sometimes, somewhat similar to, a little bit like their recorded version - maybe.

But not always.  

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i don't get that is that a good or a bad thing...?

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I'm always extremely suspicious when I hear descriptions like that because they sound like a very convenient way for a player to explain away issues like memory slips, missed notes, or confusion.

"I meant to do it that way" is a get-out-of-jail-free card for "artists."

That doesn't mean everyone that plays differently each time is cheating, just that I have to wonder whenever I hear anything along those lines. 

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Yeap. 

And I know we've heard the story of how the artist is just plain old tired of playing that song the same way for "umteen" years. 

Seriously. I'm not saying it is good or bad. But you do hear folks say they "wish" they could hear it played like they remember it on the recording. Said that myself a few times. 

Just bought tickets to see Bob Dylan again this coming spring - maybe the last time... and I'm not expecting to hear anything but Bob Dylan.

I think almost all artists will play something live slightly (or grossly) different then the recording, unless you are talking about classical music, where the ensemble is meant to sound exactly the same everytime. Even Rock tunes with a signature hook to the lead are shuffled a bit, or a lot. I love the Santana song "Soul Sacrifice", but when I went to see Carlos live, the version was very different then the recording. But some artists are pretty fanatical about this; I believe Bill Monroe was among that camp. For me, it depends on the situation. I like to introduce different styles into a tune, especially during dances; had to play TitS one time for what seemed like 1/2 hour for a dance, so that tune went thru lots of changes. Other times, I'll keep religiously to the tune melody.

Yeah. I've heard all kinds of "advice":

Learn to play it exactly like "they" do - then you'll know what not to play.

Play it straight the first time round - then how you want to after that.

All that matters is how you start and finish - everything in-between is "jazz".

But - I will say that a lot of times that I have heard versions of a melody played with better arrangements by those who are playing what the hear in their head. If it's not the same as the original - is it the same?

And I know how a magic spell is cast when everyone just keeps playing the same thing for 10 minutes - but I find that the magic usually never extends beyond the circle of musicians playing the tune - or the dancers. The audience wonders what the big deal is supposed to be about...

To me the answer is academic - and only becomes controversial when we talk about it  And that is its own fun.

wrench13 - I'm confused - Do you mean Monroe was in the camp of "play it like the record" or "different every time."
Tony - Speaking of Bob Dylan, I was in the audience at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965 when he unveiled his electric band. It certainly wasn't like what I'd heard the year before, but maybe similar to what was "on the record," although I'm not sure of the exact chronology of all that.

I think there’s a difference between minor variations and a different version of a tune. Especially in genres where improvisation is standard, players make little changes as they play a tune over time, but the character or feel of the tune remains constant. If you’re looking at a different version of a tune, it needs to have a different overall character to it to really be a version of its own. This is where fiddling confounds a lot of new players—versions are sometimes so named because of the change of only a note or two, which does not actually change the character. The nomenclature is at issue here.

But if the versions are actually distinct, it can be worthwhile to learn them separately for use at pertinent moments; perhaps one is more upbeat and lively while the other is more somber. Or perhaps one has a simpler chord structure that’s easier to share for the first time in a group. Maybe one involves a stronger influence from another genre or a rhythmic shift that sets a different tone.

When a famous player makes variations in performance, I still consider them to be in keeping with the spirit of the original. Sometimes tweaks are made to accommodate available instrumentation, or a new solo is given a spot for experimentation. It’s up the performer to decide whether to play what’s familiar or to make drastic changes. As I’ve said before, I believe it’s the duty of any responsible performer to keep the audience at the forefront of any performance, so decisions about these things ought to take the possible reaction into consideration.

In an age where people tend to hear recordings first and then decide whether to attend a concert later, there’s a stronger expectation that the show will match the recording. With exorbitant ticket prices as they are now, you’re bound to feel cheated if you pay to hear something and are presented with something entirely different.

Which version should you play if you like two? If you’re playing for yourself, pick what you like. Perhaps learn both for the academic venture and to consider the skeleton of the tune from different angles. If you’re playing for anyone else, consider the effect. Will the obscurity of a version throw people off or will they appreciate a different take they might not have encountered before? Will other instruments be able to follow you or will you end up playing a solo? Are the listeners primarily listening or dancing?

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Originally posted by DougD

wrench13 - I'm confused - Do you mean Monroe was in the camp of "play it like the record" or "different every time."
Tony - Speaking of Bob Dylan, I was in the audience at the Newport Folk Festival in 1965 when he unveiled his electric band. It certainly wasn't like what I'd heard the year before, but maybe similar to what was "on the record," although I'm not sure of the exact chronology of all that.

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...and through the years he has continued to tweak here and there on anything he plays from "back then" - and you can still tell what the song is - but I don't think I've ever heard him play anything the way it was recorded "back then".  That upsets a lot of folks, but ...its Bob Dylan. Listen to it.  No - it's not the same. If you want to hear that - go home and listen to the album.  

His performances are still great - but then - I have a deep appreciation for what he has done - and doing.  I've never said _ "Man - what a waste."  I still play several of his songs (my arrangements).  Blood on the Tracks is one of my all time favorite albums by anyone.   "You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go"

Hmm well, my flute friend learned an utterly gorgeous old version of “Ships Are Sailing” and played it for me, and I was like, wow this is way better.

But everybody at sessions plays the standard familiar version…for a while she refused to learn the standard version - but now she plays the standard version with us. If it’s just us two or a very small group, she might trot out her obscure version…I kinda can play along with it, but couldn’t lead it.

The thing is, peer pressure is powerful…
and the other thing is, she’d be pretty unpopular if she insisted on playing her less-known version WHILE everybody is playing the familiar standard version…it wouldn’t sound good…

Someone says: "OK. Let's play Cumberland Gap" ...and then they spend 10 minutes figuring out which one and another 5 deciding what key.  

...it's not funny. 

Good tunes can become victims of their popularity. Players will change things to suit their skill level or just their individual preferences plus everyone hears it a little differently so it can be unintentional. The more it goes around in the folk blender the more versions get created. Sometimes a tune is so good people get tired of hearing it all the time it and it goes underground then someone says “we should play that more that’s a good tune!

Monroe was certainly no stickler for "same way every time." He swapped parts around, took/skipped breaks, changed tempos, and evolved through at least three distinct mandolin styles over his career (at least to my ear).

Lately I've been listening to a bunch of old field recordings of fiddlers from the 1930s with some interviews. Two very common stories turn up with fiddlers from all over the country. One of those concerns the way they learned tunes in their youth by hearing someone play, sing, or whistle a tune during the day, then whistling that tune to themselves the rest of the day until they got home to a fiddle. If true, it's no wonder at all that versions of tunes vary so much or even get confused with other tunes and titles!

David Bragger's lessons were always utterly precise when it came to what notes were to be played in the tunes he taught, and which direction those notes were to be bowed. "Down! Up! Down! Down! Up! Up!" he'd tell us. Whenever me and my fellow Bragger students got together to play we might as well as been the bloody Berlin Philharmonic...apart from our miserable group intonation, of course. In any case, it was fun as heck...not to mention a very effective way for me and my fellow Bragger-ites to get those tunes under our fingers.

I have described this to some folks starting  many years ago. You can hear twelve fiddlers play "Mississippi Sawyer" and no will play exactly the same notes as the others, but you will know that they're all playing  "Mississippi Sawyer". Is this different versions of the same tune?

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Originally posted by carlb

I have described this to some folks starting  many years ago. You can hear twelve fiddlers play "Mississippi Sawyer" and no will play exactly the same notes as the others, but you will know that they're all playing  "Mississippi Sawyer". Is this different versions of the same tune?

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Before I knew anything about a fiddle, I didn't understand how the fiddle was tuned and how it can play in different registers and any key. Now I understand, the melody and harmonies can be in many many different places on the fingerboard.  It can be a blessing or a curse. Just like fretlessness. I enbrace it. Only four strings. Only infinite possibilities.

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Originally posted by bacfire

Monroe was certainly no stickler for "same way every time." He swapped parts around, took/skipped breaks, changed tempos, and evolved through at least three distinct mandolin styles over his career (at least to my ear).

Yes, for sure. Monroe was very much an old time musician. He also had a deep understanding and feel for the quirkyness of fiddle music and its place in American music. His bands were tightly structured but he was not afraid of being crooked when it suited him. Despite the polish of his bands there was always a rustic  quality to his playing. Towards the end of his life he wrote a bunch of great pentatonic fiddle tunes. Old Dangerfield, Old man of the Mountain, Ebenezer, etc. that show his old time leanings. 

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