alaskafiddler Pretty much nailed it. I could never intonate just by looking at the tape. The tape has been simply a starting point. And once I get my hand on the fiddle and start playing, it's purely by feel and by ear. At the last jam I was at, only the second jam I'd been to with a fiddle, I get to get the key and chord changes down quickly. Getting close with one finger and then playing by ear helped getting started. And per the later posts, the 2nd stop tape is the first to go and the 5th stop is next. What I'll likely do is every two or three jams, take another tape off. One more with all three; the a few with two tapes, then a few with one.

-K

My rental instrument will be available for me to purchase soon, if I want. I thought I'd like to compare it to other instruments so I went to the showroom today. I tried a number of other violins, none had tapes. I struggled a bit (a lot) to hit the notes on the money. But I was surprised at how many notes I could get. I can see removing the tapes on my instrument some point soon. I think removing 1 tape at a time is a good strategy. I'm just not there yet. I had to slide my fingers around quite a bit to reach the correct note, but I guess that's a good way to learn. Also, I will probably keep my Eastman 305 violin as it sounded pretty good compared to the others that were a $1000 more.
John

I Believe we can 'tackle good intonation' from the very first day we pick up the fiddle.  As many have pointed out the method of finding notes which is actually quicker than looking for the appropriate marker tape after a few practice sessions.  It would be very unlikely  good intonation will be achieved immediately, but it will get you in 'rough ballpark' just as looking at tapes will.  And it's a skill we use for rest of our fiddle journey, might as well begin now because the longer we leave it our ears will get used to hearing bad intonation we get from looking at tapes....

Have you tried using drones?

If you play a note that harmonizes withe an adjacent open string you hear a nice smooth sound. If you are off even a little bit, you get a trill oscillation.

If you play the 5th "fret" on the E string (I think in terms of frets, as on a mandolin) it is an octave above your open A string. Play them both at the same time, if you are off a little, you can hear the trill oscillation which sounds really bad.

On the A string: Open A harmonizes with the open E, B (second "fret" on the A string) harmonizes with the E also, C# (4th "fret") harmonizes with the E also. The 5th "fret" is an octave above the D string, the 7th "fret" is unison with the open E string.

For the more difficult keys (Bb), I made backup tracks. They are 32 measures of bluegrass to drone against in all keys. Just look at the media in my profile.

Bb - harmonize with the open D, F harmonize with the open A, Eb harmonize with the open G. The other notes in that scale are already part of your system, except the pesky high Eb and Bb.

quote:

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Originally posted by StPeteNick

Have you tried using drones?

If you play a note that harmonizes withe an adjacent open string you hear a nice smooth sound. If you are off even a little bit, you get a trill oscillation.

If you play the 5th "fret" on the E string (I think in terms of frets, as on a mandolin) it is an octave above your open A string. Play them both at the same time, if you are off a little, you can hear the trill oscillation which sounds really bad.

On the A string: Open A harmonizes with the open E, B (second "fret" on the A string) harmonizes with the E also, C# (4th "fret") harmonizes with the E also. The 5th "fret" is an octave above the D string, the 7th "fret" is unison with the open E string.

For the more difficult keys (Bb), I made backup tracks. They are 32 measures of bluegrass to drone against in all keys. Just look at the media in my profile.

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One of the things my teacher mentioned, which I sort of already know because I play other instruments and have a reasonable understanding of theory, is certain notes will ring open strings.  Play a G on the 3rd string, D on the 2nd, or A on the 1st and the string one lower will ring in sympathy. 

What I"m doing now to work on my intonation is play the lower octave of the A-major scale as several of the notes fall on different half-steps than the higher octave.

-K

For those who are using tape, start with the third finger A string and get your D note to sonically line up with the open D string, you'll hear it when it does. Play both strings to ensure you're not just "close enough." Then put your first finger down where F# note is on E string (second "fret") and get it to be in tune with your D note. Get those two finger placements down and you are able to play 3/4 of a full octave A scale. The other two notes should fall into place, one (C#) closer to the D, the other (G) is closer to the F#. This works to get you started for key of A and also D G, A Mixolydian (like "Old Joe Clark" and other modal A tunes) and E Dorian (it's like Em). You start on different strings for the other keys, but can use the example to get yourself into position.

The first time I attempted to play fiddle a friend had one and I was already playing mandolin. She let my play it and I started out decent enough playing a little "Old Joe Clark" but once I started trying to actual play tunes at tempo, I could barely find any of the notes  The main reason is because the mandolin and fiddle have different string length and the notes are a little closer together on the fiddle (at least in this case, we compared) and my fingers were used to slightly wider spacing. I have a good ear but couldn't hit the precise notes because the secondary issue was this: frets let me be less accurate.

I share that to emphasize the importance of having a solid grasp on exact placement. Getting the F# D note connection solid will give you a leg up. If you play mandolin too, I suggest seeing it aside while you are learning fiddle. The fiddle is a harsh mistress and she requires your full attention. The mandolin with its frets will 1) make you press too hard on the fiddle and 2) keep you from learning to place your fingers precisely.

Well stated Billy.
Do re mi fa so la ti do, is the model I used. I could hear this in my head. I should note, I employed moving Doe. The drill would be to put a finger down anywhere and find the scale from there. Then, eventually backwards and staggered steps. Before long song and tunes emerged. That when I understood "it's all in there." A tune is like a canoe. First chop down a tree and remove anything that isn't a canoe.

I should have  said the Mando(lorian) can slow your learning precise placement.

I think the mando is a excellent pre-fiddle instrument; one can get used to the cramped positions of the left hand; learn the various scale patterns; and most important the various intervals between the open strings and fingered notes on the adjacent strings. I would suggest to get to know these intervals through the study of the song list I previously posted. After some practice those intervals will stick in your head and will be able to find them without the song reference.

Also, get to know the intervals of the major and minor arpeggios, well enough that one can sing them. When one commences this study the 'inner ear' will begin to anticipate the notes one is intending to play, and this is where the magic is; the fingers will play what the inner ear hears.

This can be easily tested, even on the mando; play an open string, I suggest D string because it's in the vocal range, then the G (3rd finger on D). Listen to this interval, hear it in your head, try to sing it. When you are confident you can hear it, take your hand away from the mando down to your side, pluck the open D string and listen for the G, now, 'without looking', bring your hand to play position and play the G, 3rd finger. If the note was missed repeat until you get it spot on.

I believe it's a natural process to anticipate notes, especially after learning to play any instrument, the facility of which may vary. The above exercise will only speed up this process.

Mandolin is great to give you general finger placement, but going from one to the other, back and forth, can encourage mashing the strings like fretted instruments kind of make you do, and placement is tricky enough without going back and forth from the wide landing zone of frets to the very precise fiddle landing zone. That's my personal experience playing in a band that had me fiddle and mandolin. I had to finally just play one (in that case, mandolin mostly). Learning only complicates things. The more versed one is in mandolin, the learning curve is much steeper. Is that the right phrase? Meaning you are likely to learn quicker.

I learnt mandolin and fiddle roughly the same time. But the thing what made me stick to the fiddle mostly, was the fiddlers single string goes right down the place where the mandolin double course goes. I used to take a break with both instruments. About the third tune my fingertips were spent. If and I mean if, you know how to play fiddle, I truly believe it's one of the easiest things to do. It's light. Once one understands how light to pet the cat, it hardly takes any physical effort.

Remove the tape ASAP. Work on developing your ear. I never used tape, but consider B on the A string any home base.

I just put a new tape piece on my E string to help me get my pinky onto the right spot for a particular tune...I consider it sort of like a hot dog and pork and bean dinner, that is: Comfort food... Nothing wrong with a little comfort...I've played for 50 years and still appreciate a little help. No shame in that. Do what works for YOU

Think of the tapes as diapers. Necessary at first, but…


Ok someone finish that.

Hey have some class! Round here, we calls 'em Depends.

LOL
Depends upon who is wearing them.

Zeke: Charlie, you figure that G is 'bout right or.......

Charlie: Depends.

I don't think position markers of any kind make one bit of sense on a fiddle, ever.

Trying to use your eyes to position your fingers while holding a violin in anything like the standard fashion is only going to strain your eyes and your neck, and IMO directs your attention AWAY FROM the ear-hand coordination you're trying to learn.

Use open strings (or drone notes from another source) for pitch reference, and practice hearing and SINGING various intervals in relation to those.

There are people who have 'perfect pitch' and there are people who have hearing problems and who have trouble hearing intervals when tuning.. Wonder who that could be? No rule applies to all...To some musicians it all seems to come easy but at least for me.. when people say "I sure wish I had your talent".. I want to scream, "Talent!??? I struggled for every single note.. !!!!".... and love every minute of the struggle..

It's the Major Thirds and the Major Sevenths that can still elude my fingers and ears. When I'm going upwards the proper pitches seem to be different than when I'm going downwards. I also have endless problems trying to pin down the octaves. My fingers seem to want to put the higher octave note a bit sharp.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

. . . .  I also have endless problems trying to pin down the octaves. My fingers seem to want to put the higher octave note a bit sharp.

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It's a good problem. Seems Alison Krauss does this sometimes. It makes that solo break stand out.  Just like a voice, testifying!