Wow...Anja...you are fiddling Sourwood mountain so good...nice job! Very Old Time!

Thank you so much Peggy! Maybe I needed to find this specific tune and version now, because the time was exactly right for me :-))

Truly excellent! The first one, especially, magically takes me back centuries in time!

Thank you Ed :-D I will work hard to get it closer to the original of this version. Next on my list is Yew Piney Mountain. The plan is each day a couple of notes on a low speed till I have reached the end:

https://youtu.be/zeLMxGPQ9jY?

This one is outstanding.

I'm an up-tempo guy, but I like both! Maybe the up-tempo version a tiny bit more.

Am I thinking right? I think Peggy might know Dwight Dillar.

Uptempo seemed to be mostly a few more notes through rather than quicker. That matters not. Such a nice tone coming from you and the intonation is great! You'll be playing everything you want in no time (relatively speaking).

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Uptempo seemed to be mostly a few more notes through rather than quicker. That matters not. Such a nice tone coming from you and the intonation is great! You'll be playing everything you want in no time (relatively speaking).

---

Before I was going to try Yew Piney Mountain I thought why not try to record myself while playing a blues tune. I know none, so tried to just express all of the drama i don't want in my life haha. The funny thing is that was the last time I could play before the end of next week, because after that I had this broken fine tuner.

That's fate telling me dare to complain again about life! Because I played the blues lol. 

Must drive an hour from here to get to the luthier today and he could only have a look at it second half of next week.

Wow...Anja...seems to me you are making some real connections with your fiddle...heart and soul! Very nice!

That is the nicest thing you could have sai about my playing Peggy. Finally my wish is coming true, because all I ever wished for was to be able to learn and play by heart.

Hey Anja - Great job on the fiddling. Surprised you didn't use Strum Machine for some backup. BTW - love the heavy dusting of rosin on your fiddle. Some folks are very picky about wiping it off after every playing session, I myself leave it on. But then all my fiddles came out of flea markets and junk shops.

Hey Rich, good to see you here!! I found a way to postpone the visit to the luthier by using the peg for tuning the G string hehe. I am afraid he won't be that amused if he sees the rosin :-D  I see it as an act of resistance against the elite attitude of the classical world, although there are exceptions on this general rule, like my violin teacher that first year. Also here I met progressive violinists/fiddlers by the way, the world needs them.  Strum machine is a very good idea... Can use the foot tapping well.

Quincy, I guess you're attracted to the playing of Dwight Diller, but here a few versions of "Sourwood Mountain" I thought might interest you. Its mostly consdered a "folksong," and is more often sung with banjo accompaniment, like this:
youtu.be/n6J1VI3NPc4?feature=shared
Also popular in the African American community - Boone Reid was the father of fingerstyle guitarist Etta Baker:
youtu.be/ZNigGmnOw7Q?feature=shared
Here's a classic string band version. All the fiddle playing on this group's records was by Jim Booker, an African American. He couldn't be shown in promo photos for the group, so Dennis Taylor, the promoter/manager, is shown holding a fiddle. His daugher said he couldn't even hum a tune, let alone play the fiddle.
youtu.be/J3RwwxdGLEE?feature=shared
Lastly, a modern, but still old time version by Eddie Bond, a fine fiddler from Galax:
youtu.be/BwUXDw9ASTI?feature=shared

Lol Rich, I just put on foot percussion, noone can stop me now , this was a priceless hint :-D You made me even more happy now.

Thanks for the links Doug!

I am have been working with Document Records over the past few years on old time music recordings like these with African American musicians. We will be starting on a reissue of the April and August 1927 recordings the Bookers and Robert Steele made with various artists for Gennett records including the recordings where Roberts was accompanied by Joe and John Booker.

I have been at this for a year or two and there is a very interesting story to this. Old Time music was a business filled with lots of conflict between the recording artists and their agents, and the record companies and between the different record companies. It was in many ways a process where the record companies tried to create an image of a product, very famously advertising recordings of the earlier recordings of the studio fake group "Taylor's Kentucky Boys" with a photograph of Dennis Taylor whose wife told Charles Wolfe he could play no instrument and could even hum or whistle, holding a fiddle, because the fiddler on the advertised recordings from April 1927 was Black. Even if they used Black artists, the record companies tried to brand old time music recordings as "white" music.

The fiddle playing on the Gennett Records August 1927 recording of Sourwood Mountain was done by Fiddlin' Doc
Roberts and Joe Booker according to the latest and most authoritative discography. adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php..._Mountain

This is the only one of the "Taylor's Kentucky Boys" recordings from the August 1927 session that was actually issued as a record as far as we know. "Sourwood Mountain" is known today only from stencil label issues on the Sears budget labels Supertone (9165) and Silvertone 8179 attributed to "Hill''s Virginia Mountaineers."

Doc Roberts was angry with Gennett Records and with Dennis Taylor the manager (and also a farmer whose farm adjoined Roberts' in Kentucky). who brought him and about 100 artists each year to the Gennett studios in Indiana. One way to look at is that Taylor making big money while paying most of the artists who were recorded chump change. He brought bunches of blues and old time musicians to regular sessions at the Gennett studios in Indiana. While Taylor had absolutely no musical talent, his wife who was musically trained and other musicians rehearsed the musicians for performances at Taylor's large home in Kentucky where they stayed for as long as a week before Taylor brought them to Gennett 's studio in Indiana.

Earlier in 1927 Doc Robertshe had complained to Gennett records about how much of the money his records earned went to Taylor and not him. Gennett was told he was under contract with Taylor and to work out his prolems with Taylor. Gennett records told Roberts that if he needed more money, he could go to other record companies and record and not tell Taylor, but could remain with Gennett as long as he used another name than Doc Roberts on other labels. Roberts skipped the April 1927 Taylor session with Gennett and instead went to Chicago with two local musicians and made recordings with two Ky musicians for Paramount and other labels.

Taylor, left in the lurch for the April recordings which again were rehearsed in Kentucky, but without Roberts since he was in Chicago and possibly elsewhere recording with other companies. Taylor brought Jim Booker Jr., an African American fiddler from Kentucky to play fiddle on the April 1927recordings including the seminal recording of Forked Deer and Grey Eagle where Jim Booker Jr. and Marion Underwood display masterful interplay between banjo and fiddle.

This was so successful that Taylor brought Booker' and his two brothers, Joe and John and their African American neighbor Robert Steele with him to the planned August recording session. Taylor organized regular trips taking blues and old time musicians to Gennett's Indiana studios. He rehearsed them at his home in Kentucky for a week or so before doing the recordings under the supervision of his wife, so that his recordings were quite efficiant once they got to the studio.

Roberts and Gennett records seemed to have made up in time for Roberts to appear at the planned August 1927 recordings with Gennett. There Roberts recorded several of his best fiddle performances accompanied on the guitar by John Booker and Joe Booker. Jim Booker Jr. also played on several tunes featuring himself and banjoist Marion Underwood.

Taylors Kentucky Boys was used for releases of fiddle tunes that had no vocal. In both the August and April sessions, even if someone yelled out one verse, the tune was issued as recorded by whoever did that vocal. Instrumentals only were attributed to Taylors group. There is absolutely no evidence any such group performed before anyone in Kentucky or anywhere else. Roberts, Underwood, and the Bookers performed with other people in Kentucky and elsewhere under other names.

"Sourwood Mountain" is the only purported Taylor's KY boys recording from the August 1927 that anyone has ever found issued by anyone. All the other recordings from that session "Turkey In The Straw" and "Old Hen Cackled And The Rooster Crowed" were not issued by Gennett records.

There several possible explanations. One is that they were technical failures, with Gennett having fairly primitive reording equipment even by 1927 standards. Some report Roberts did not want these recordings issued because Doc Roberts did not like performances where he played with other fiddlers. Yet Roberts and Joe Booker sound great here. Likewise, Roberts had no problem and sounded great on other recordings in the August 1927 session on which he played along with Jim Booker Jr. or when he fiddled on "Salty Dog" with Joe Booker, and John Booker and Robert Steele.

The real reason for not issuing these recordings may have been that Dennis Taylor got a bigger cut from Taylor's Kentucky Boys recordings, than the other recordings, and Roberts was mad at Taylor.

The rule seemed to be that old time instrumental were released as Taylors recordings but anything with a vocal was issued under the name of the vocalist. The 2 black country ragtime recordings were issued as by the Booker Orchestra, including the one current discography says Roberts played on. We know Roberts was mad at Taylor (this must have been something insofar as Taylor and Robert's tobacco farms in Kentucky adjoined each other), and Taylor might have been getting a biggeer cut from Gennnett of "Taylor's" recordings than the others.

Gennett sold a lot of its records to budget labels like these two Sears labels that issued this recording. They had a larger reach and more sales than Gennett did. Gennett was still pretty much an offshoot of the Gennetti piano company and would go out of business in the early 1930s. It may be that Gennett sold this to Superton and Silvertone but did not tell the artists or their managers like Taylor that they had done this and kept the money. On the other hand, since Roberts was one of their biggest selling artists in any genre, he may have beentold and received some payments for such "stencil" label recordings . Yet, it may have been that Gennett sold these recordings to other Sears without telling the artists or their managers like Taylor. Capitalism is like that now and was like that in 1927!

Anyone interested in discussing these recording sessions can reach me at Blackbanjotony@gmail.com.

Thanks

Wow that was an interesting read. I agree for 200% with your end conclusion!!! It's always also my final conclusion to answer many questions of modern life.

What I make up from this, as Hollywood had industrialized the cinema business with actors receiving status because of their movie role, there were similar attempts to industrialize fiddle music recordings and promote the status of fiddle artist later on. Did they succeed eventually? To me as an outsider I percept old time music as very real and authentic. In contrast to the large amount of orchestrated fake we get to see through mainstream media. It somehow feels like old time fiddlers were able to escape the claws of a very greedy industry and remain 100% true to the oldtime fiddle masters of the past.

quote: Hey Doug is this post based on any inside info with Taylor's daughter?  Charles Wolfe said he talked to Taylor's wife if I have it right I have to look it up.  As I explain in detail below, what was going on is that Roberts started to get angry at Taylor because Taylor was making big money (sometimes 1000 1927 bucks a month) while he and the other artists were not.  He complained to Gennett and they told him if he needed more money they did not object to him making records under a different name for other companies. 

Taylor had regular scheduled trips of his artists from KY to the Gennett Studios.  Roberts and two local musicans left KY in April 27 when a trip was scheduled by Taylor's artists for KY to Gennett Records.   But Roberts did not go to Gennett in Indiana, instead he headed for Chicago with two local artists.  They made records with Paramount and one other company in Chicago that were released as by the Quadrillers and other names.   Roberts was not back in KY in time for the next session he had scheduled in April 1927.  Moreover Taylor had the musicians rehearsing at  Taylor's house for about one week before going to the Gennett studios so the recordings were quick,good and efficient. 

Taylor had no musical gifts, but greed and business sense,  but Wolfe found that it was Taylor's wife who could read music and play piano and helped rehearse the musicians.    Roberts was not back from Chicago and may have gone elsewhere to make recordings by the time the rehearsals for the Gennett sessions began.

They must have turned to Jim Booker Jr. (he is sometimes confused with his dad who was an even more famous fiddler who died in 1903) as a good fiddler.   He seemed to have a link to Marion Underwood since the way they go back and forth sharing the lead on Forked Deer and Gray Eagle is interesting, reminding me a lot of how Frazier and Patterson exchanged leads.  Jim Booker Jr played on almost every recording Underwood is featured on in both the April and August session.

By the August Sessions both Taylor and Roberts had been told by Gennett records to make up.  Roberts did show up.  Taylor  also brought not only Jim Booker Jr., but Jim's brothers Joe and John.   Roberts made eight recordings 6 accompanied by John Booker, and two accompanied by Joe Booker on guitar all  issued as Doc Roberts Records.  Kerry Blech who I knew even before he moved to FLa told me hat those were the recordings to study if I wanted to learn to back a fiddler back when I only played guitar.   

Roberts and Joe Booker were featured as fiddlers on all of the socalled Taylors KY boys recordings in that session, fiddle tune instrumentals.  None of them appeared to have been issued by Gennett records.  Sourwood Mountain has been located from this as issued to two Sears budget labels under another name, but not as a Gennett recording.   See my other post about this all.

See my remarks elsewhere in this thread about these recordings or write me if at Blackbanjotony@gmail.com  I am working for Document Records to put out a new issue of all the recordings with the Bookers from the April and August sessions with Gennett including the recordings accompanying Roberts.

Thanks Doug.   You know,  I keep thinking of Robert Matthew Lewis, and all the good he did for folks like us way back in that other century when we were young.  If there is someone to admire that would be him.  LOL if it were not for him I would not have met folks like you.  

Since  I posted this I have learned that Gennett records knew what was going on with Doc Roberts.  Roberts had approached Gennett about his unhappiness with the way that Dennis Taylor was taking big money from his sales at Gennett.  They told him that he had a contract with Taylor so there was nothing they could do,  They told him that they did not mind if he made money by going to other record companies  and make records as long as Roberts put other names on the recording.  We know that Roberts approached Paramount Records about recording for them.

When Roberts approached Paramount, Paramount asked  Gennett records to give Paramount written permission to record Roberts even though Roberts was going to record under other names.  Paramount did receive permission from Gennett to do this.  We know that Paramount suggested that they could schedule their recording session in Chicago to be convenient for Roberts to travel to Indiana to participate in in the April 1927 recordings for the musicians represented by Taylor.  Paramount suggested that the recording date could be scheduled either before or after the Gennett recording sessions so Roberts would only need to make one trip to and from Kentucky.  Roberts did not do this.  He may have stayed in Chicago or other spots in the Midwest where he had opportunities to record, or he might have just not wanted to record for Dennis Taylor any more.

Apparently,  the one party involved that did not know about this was Dennis Taylor.  He must have figured out something since Taylor's Tobacco farm adjoined Roberts' tobacco farm.  Roberts was gone several weeks, traveling with two of the musicians Roberts played with locally.   Taylor did not simply take musicians to recording dates at the Gennett studio in Indiana.  Taylor gathered musicians at his large house where they rehearsed under the supervision of his wife who was musically trained and senior musicians among them.  Some musicians ended up staying as much as three week's on Taylor's farm before such recording session. 

Taylor could deliver musicians to Gennett who were practiced, polished and could produce finished recordings efficiently without wasting studio time.  Whatever his lack of musical aptitude, Taylor realized the real product was delivering, musicians who could enter the studio and produce good quality 3 minute recordings in one take without wasting studio time.  

Another point that I have discovered since my previous post is that the August 26 and 27 session that Roberts did attend was on the first day that Gennett records had its electronic as opposed to pre electrical recording equipment in operation.  Roberts claimed that all the Taylor's Kentucky Boys recordings made at that session should not have been released.  After he had broken free from Taylor, he proposed to Gennett that he could record them again.   It may well have been that the quality of the recordings on the new equipment was bad.   We have heard only one, " Sourwood Mountain" with Joe Booker and Roberts fiddling.  Gennett sold to the Sears budget labels  to be as by "Hill's Virginia Mountaineers."  It sounds pretty good.  Gennett may have tried to sneak this "stencil label" recording through without telling Roberts or Taylor. There are also a few vocal recordings from that session where Jim Booker Jr and Roberts play fiddle together that were released.

This was the end for Taylor and Roberts.  Roberts recorded with Paramount in Chicago in the fall of 1927 and Recorded for Gennett several other times, but seems to have broken up with Taylor.

It must have been a bitter thing insofar as whatever was happening or not happening in studios in Indiana and Chicago,  Dennis Taylor's tobacco farm and Doc Roberts Tobacco farm in Kentucky where right next to each other.

I do not know whether this is discussed anywhere, but the issue of the time involved in making recordings in the 78 era is a very crucial question.  We or perhaps we raised on reissues of 78s and 45s  and albums made up of joining together 45s or 78, take the 3 minute recordings that the 78s  made for granted. 

However,  this was brand spanking new in the 20s when these recordings were made. Record players had just become affordable by working people and records had just become listenable enough that a person would want to listen to them.,    However, no one who was a fiddler (and most other especially dance musicians) was used to playing a tune for 3  minutes from start to finish.   You cannot even  have a square dance with 4 people for three minutes.

How was this worked out.  Taylor's solution was to rehearse the players before they got to the studio, with some people staying as much as three weeks before his sessions at Gennett.  This makes the lineup of a lot of musicians doing a lot of recordings coming out pretty well with few problems understandable for the the recordings Taylor A & Red, particularly since his recording sessions at Gennett were scheduled months in advance.

Slightly off topi, but AP Pleasant Carter could fiddle, a big part of the Carter family's success was the ability of  AP Carter and later Maybelle to craft songs that were long ballads, long sentimental or religious songs, and cut them down to 3 minute songs that made sense.   WE are used to that, but they were fairly brilliant at that.

quo

I am have been working with Document Records over the past few years on old time music recordings like these with African American musicians. We will be starting on a reissue of the April and August 1927 recordings the Bookers and Robert Steele made with various artists for Gennett records including the recordings where Roberts was accompanied by Joe and John Booker.

I have been at this for a year or two and there is a very interesting story to this. Old Time music was a business filled with lots of conflict between the recording artists and their agents, and the record companies and between the different record companies. It was in many ways a process where the record companies tried to create an image of a product, very famously advertising recordings of the earlier recordings of the studio fake group "Taylor's Kentucky Boys" with a photograph of Dennis Taylor whose wife told Charles Wolfe he could play no instrument and could even hum or whistle, holding a fiddle, because the fiddler on the advertised recordings from April 1927 was Black. Even if they used Black artists, the record companies tried to brand old time music recordings as "white" music.

The fiddle playing on the Gennett Records August 1927 recording of Sourwood Mountain was done by Fiddlin' Doc
Roberts and Joe Booker according to the latest and most authoritative discography. adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php..._Mountain

This is the only one of the "Taylor's Kentucky Boys" recordings from the August 1927 session that was actually issued as a record as far as we know. "Sourwood Mountain" is known today only from stencil label issues on the Sears budget labels Supertone (9165) and Silvertone 8179 attributed to "Hill''s Virginia Mountaineers."

Doc Roberts was angry with Gennett Records and with Dennis Taylor the manager (and also a farmer whose farm adjoined Roberts' in Kentucky). who brought him and about 100 artists each year to the Gennett studios in Indiana. One way to look at is that Taylor making big money while paying most of the artists who were recorded chump change. He brought bunches of blues and old time musicians to regular sessions at the Gennett studios in Indiana. While Taylor had absolutely no musical talent, his wife who was musically trained and other musicians rehearsed the musicians for performances at Taylor's large home in Kentucky where they stayed for as long as a week before Taylor brought them to Gennett 's studio in Indiana.

Earlier in 1927 Doc Robertshe had complained to Gennett records about how much of the money his records earned went to Taylor and not him. Gennett was told he was under contract with Taylor and to work out his prolems with Taylor. Gennett records told Roberts that if he needed more money, he could go to other record companies and record and not tell Taylor, but could remain with Gennett as long as he used another name than Doc Roberts on other labels. Roberts skipped the April 1927 Taylor session with Gennett and instead went to Chicago with two local musicians and made recordings with two Ky musicians for Paramount and other labels.

Taylor, left in the lurch for the April recordings which again were rehearsed in Kentucky, but without Roberts since he was in Chicago and possibly elsewhere recording with other companies. Taylor brought Jim Booker Jr., an African American fiddler from Kentucky to play fiddle on the April 1927recordings including the seminal recording of Forked Deer and Grey Eagle where Jim Booker Jr. and Marion Underwood display masterful interplay between banjo and fiddle.

This was so successful that Taylor brought Booker' and his two brothers, Joe and John and their African American neighbor Robert Steele with him to the planned August recording session. Taylor organized regular trips taking blues and old time musicians to Gennett's Indiana studios. He rehearsed them at his home in Kentucky for a week or so before doing the recordings under the supervision of his wife, so that his recordings were quite efficiant once they got to the studio.

Roberts and Gennett records seemed to have made up in time for Roberts to appear at the planned August 1927 recordings with Gennett. There Roberts recorded several of his best fiddle performances accompanied on the guitar by John Booker and Joe Booker. Jim Booker Jr. also played on several tunes featuring himself and banjoist Marion Underwood.

Taylors Kentucky Boys was used for releases of fiddle tunes that had no vocal. In both the August and April sessions, even if someone yelled out one verse, the tune was issued as recorded by whoever did that vocal. Instrumentals only were attributed to Taylors group. There is absolutely no evidence any such group performed before anyone in Kentucky or anywhere else. Roberts, Underwood, and the Bookers performed with other people in Kentucky and elsewhere under other names.

"Sourwood Mountain" is the only purported Taylor's KY boys recording from the August 1927 that anyone has ever found issued by anyone. All the other recordings from that session "Turkey In The Straw" and "Old Hen Cackled And The Rooster Crowed" were not issued by Gennett records.

There several possible explanations. One is that they were technical failures, with Gennett having fairly primitive reording equipment even by 1927 standards. Some report Roberts did not want these recordings issued because Doc Roberts did not like performances where he played with other fiddlers. Yet Roberts and Joe Booker sound great here. Likewise, Roberts had no problem and sounded great on other recordings in the August 1927 session on which he played along with Jim Booker Jr. or when he fiddled on "Salty Dog" with Joe Booker, and John Booker and Robert Steele.

The real reason for not issuing these recordings may have been that Dennis Taylor got a bigger cut from Taylor's Kentucky Boys recordings, than the other recordings, and Roberts was mad at Taylor.

The rule seemed to be that old time instrumental were released as Taylors recordings but anything with a vocal was issued under the name of the vocalist. The 2 black country ragtime recordings were issued as by the Booker Orchestra, including the one current discography says Roberts played on. We know Roberts was mad at Taylor (this must have been something insofar as Taylor and Robert's tobacco farms in Kentucky adjoined each other), and Taylor might have been getting a biggeer cut from Gennnett of "Taylor's" recordings than the others.

Gennett sold a lot of its records to budget labels like these two Sears labels that issued this recording. They had a larger reach and more sales than Gennett did. Gennett was still pretty much an offshoot of the Gennetti piano company and would go out of business in the early 1930s. It may be that Gennett sold this to Superton and Silvertone but did not tell the artists or their managers like Taylor that they had done this and kept the money. On the other hand, since Roberts was one of their biggest selling artists in any genre, he may have beentold and received some payments for such "stencil" label recordings . Yet, it may have been that Gennett sold these recordings to other Sears without telling the artists or their managers like Taylor. Capitalism is like that now and was like that in 1927!

Anyone interested in discussing these recording sessions can reach me at Blackbanjotony@gmail.com.

Thanks

---

I now know that Roberts actually went to Gennett records in March or April 1927 to complain about his problem with Dennis Taylor..  It was Gennett records that told Roberts that they had no objections if he wanted to make extra money by recording  with another company as long as Roberts used another name than Doc Roberts.  Roberts had heard from Paramount records and Paramount said they would record Roberts, but only if Gennett gave their permission.  Gennett sent their permission to Roberts and Paramount. 

The only one that did not know about this was Dennis Taylor.  Roberts and two local band mates went to Chicago and recorded for Paramount.   He did not show up at the long scheduled session for Taylor's' musicians to prepare for the April 26 Gennett date.  It may have been that he was not back from Chicago, but it may also have been because his wife was pregnant and about to give birth. It may have simply been that Roberts was mad at Taylor.  it was a difficult situation insofar as Taylor's farm adjoined Roberts farm, so it was probably no secret that Roberts was away in Chicago or wherever.  

Jim Booker Jr, was a fiddler who was also nearby that was fairly well known and that they felt could immediately step in for Roberts.   He lived fairly near Taylor's farm,  so he could easily participate in the rehearsals that Taylor organized before the recording sessions with Gennett in Indiana .  As he got paid per recording, it was his business to have the musicians well rehearsed under the guidance of his wife who was a pianist and whoever were the senior or better musicians.  He had some artists camped out at his house for weeks before a recording session until they could get it right.

His real product was the ability to get a number of recordings through the Gennett studio in a concentrated way  Taylor got paid for each recording, and sometimes had 3 or 4 old time and blues acts in different combinations to take to Indiana for these recordings.   Gennett was happy insofar as many of the old time and blues artists (Taylor also brought black blues singers like Crying Sam Collins on this trip) into the studio and produce recordings quickly.  This is not to be discounted since the performance practices of blues and old time musicians was NOT to do any of the tunes or blues they played in the three minute limit that the 78 record required.   Taylor's musicians were already practiced to do this before they got to the studio.   He made quite a bit of money doing this.

The August 26 and 27 recordings were Roberts last recordings with Taylor although he continued recording with Gennett on and off until Gennett went out of business in 1934.   He also continued to record with Paramount and other labels at the same time.

One of the driving forces for Roberts was a continually growing family and the way small tobacco farmers like himself were being ground down by the low prices for tobacco and higher prices for everything else.  On the  other hand, Roberts tried at different times to leave Kentucky seeing if he could make it on radio programs in Chicago and later Iowa, but always ended up not wanting to live outside of the KY area he came up in.

Someone has to devote themselves to writing a good book about Doc Roberts.

:Doug the August 1927 recording of Sourwood Mountain by "Taylors Kentucky Boys"t was never released by Gennett records,  but was released on the Sears budget labels "Supertone" and "Silver Tone" had two fiddlers on it.

  One fiddler was Doc Roberts and the other fiddler was Joe Booker, not Jim Booker.

 A big part of Gennett's business was selling recordings to other record companies with bigger distribution.  I think at times Gennett records did this without telling the original artists and always used fictitious names.  When Roberts had money problems with Taylor precipitating the struggles between Roberts and Taylor in 1927,  Gennett records told Roberts they were fine if he went to Chicago and recorded for Gennett as long as he used another  name.  When he set up a deal with Paramount, Paramount said they would only do so with Gennett's permission which they received.

A lot of the discography of these sessions have been corrected  in the discography  provided by UCSB's  Discography of American Historical Recordingsy.   This is the only "Taylors" recording from the August 1927 sessions that anyone has heard.   It is not clear if the record was actually released officially by Gennett record as such.  It has only been found on Silvertone and Supertone sides as by  Hills' Virginia Mountaineers.  Gennett probably had bigger business on some sides from stencil sales where they sold masters to other record companies with a bigger distribution than Gennett.   These companies usually issued the records under other names than the Gennett records.

Doc Roberts claimed  not to like any of the pure string band recordings  made during the August 1927is session.  He did not want them released .   He later offered to rerecord them again with his own accompanists.    Speculation is that he was just mad at Dennis Taylor who may have received a larger fee for the Taylors  Kentucky boys recordings than the other recordings.   Roberts is also said to have not liked any recordings  he plays with other fiddlers to be released.  On the other hand, Roberts had no problem playing with Jim Booker Jr.  on several sides in this session accompanying singers.

Roberts is also said to have claimed the recording quality of those records were inadequate.  Electrical  recording was fairly new for Gennett, but I checked with people from the UCSB discography operation who cataloged this stuff for their discography.  They knew about problems Gennett had when it first introduced electical recordings earlier that year but they did not know  of particular recording problems during these sessions.

I have a strong suspicion that Gennett records sold these sides to Supertone and Silvertone without telling either Dennis Taylor or Doc Roberts and kept the fees they were supposed to pay them.

Roberts seemed to have the most problems during this session with the Taylor's Kentucky Boys recordings.   My suspicion is that he was just plain mad at Taylor.  Gennett may have salvaged this recording and made a few bucks selling it to Supertone and Silvertone without telling Roberts or Dennis Taylor and made a few bucks.

These were the last recordings that Roberts made for Dennis Taylor.  Thereafter he had other management.  Gennett records and Paramount agreed for Roberts to make more recordings for Paramount and its budget labels that fall I think in September. 

Here at fiddle hell in Massachusetts about to give a presentation on the Bookers and Roberts.   Thanks

I guess after several years of researching this,  my biggest problem is the way that some discographers and music historians accepted that there was  any reality to Taylors Kentucky Boys.  There is no proof it existed outside the 1927 sessions.  Roberts performed with other musicians under other names both locally in Kentucky and in his trip to Chicago and a trip he made to Iowa years later. 

The Bookers performed  under the name of "Camp Nelson Band" for years in the same local area.   However, there is no evidence that such a group existed anywhere outside of the April and August Gennett recordings.    There is a clear code.  Instrumental tunes that are old time music are attributed to Taylors Kentucky Boys.  Any recording with the slightest vocal like Aulton Ray shouting out "I love a soldier yes I do"  on "Soldier Joy" is attributed to whoever does the vocal.  This is done in both the April and August sessions for recordings in the same session with different personnel. 

The only difference in this is the two "Booker Orchestra" recordings which are both pretty much  what Wilgus called Black Country ragtime, a mixture of blues and country rags.  They included the three Booker brothers, plus Black mandolin and bones player Robert Steele, and on one recording Doc Roberts.

I hear you writerrad... what's up with all of the large pieces of  text?  I understand you want to give some credit to black fiddlers as well , saw some great black fiddlers passing by on YouTube, but apparently you want to reach Doug hehe.
It's kind of the topic I started so I interfere here :-) Please check my latest video writerrad. Fyi:  I mainly play the part : Hoe mooi nog het leven de zomerse hei,  dat is hier op aarde de hemel voor mij.
Translated to English these lines go How beautiful still life on the summerly heath, that is here on earth what's heaven for me.
Blessings to all who read this . Fiddle for the world ( and my Ziva for the win <3)