RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/23/2025:  21:27:14

And was it worth it?



I don't think in general it should have taken me this long. Here are few successes:

• The Irish Washerwoman (because I struggled bowing the B part cleanly for a long time)


• Soppin' the Gravy (passable Texas Contest style version)


• Ross' Reel #4 (again took a long time to play the whole thing cleanly)


• Woodchopper's Reel (sounds a little rusty now, but I'm still taking the win!)

I don't mean that I worked every day on those tunes for five years. But I worked on them a lot one way or another over five years or more. Was it worth it? Probably in the sense that a rising tide lifts all boats.

Other tunes that I have practiced off-and-on for at least five years that aren't there yet:

• Hull's Victory (bowing on the B part isn't consistent: sometimes it's good, sometimes it's muddy)


• President Garfield's Hornpipe (much better than years ago, but still not consistent)

I could also make a list of tunes I just started in the last year that I expect will take at least five.

I don't think it should take that long. In part it's probably an age thing. I'm sure there are a lot of young people who can master tunes much faster.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/23/2025:  21:36:56

Actually, Woodchopper's sounds good. Whatever I was playing rustily was not Woodchopper's.



I'm realizing now that most people don't use the phrase a rising tide lifts all boats outside the context of economics. Here a boat = a tune. So when I work on one tune, I getter better overall, which makes all my tunes better.

carlb - Posted - 06/24/2025:  04:58:46

The Irish set dance "The Blackbird". Finally I got the twist in the 15 measure 2nd part to be musically smooth.

farmerjones - Posted - 06/24/2025:  05:09:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by RinconMtnErnie

I'm realizing now that most people don't use the phrase a rising tide lifts all boats outside the context of economics. Here a boat = a tune. So when I work on one tune, I getter better overall, which makes all my tunes better.

---

I get it. You're right. It's all "throttle time" as the pilots call it. Experience counts. 

Right now, for me, it all counts but listening to the playback doesn't seem to reflect it. But also, it's always been a search for tone I'm never happy with. Folks around me are very kind. Ridiculously supportive. 

On the question:

Ashokan Farewell. Learned it completely by ear. 

100 Pipers. There was only one guy I knew that played it. I only saw him once a year.

Note, FHO please don't post a plethora of links to a bunch of versions. Thanks

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 06/24/2025:  05:45:31

For me anything I play is a work in progress...although, I know what you mean. I've got so many tunes that I would never dare try to play in front of anybody...and I don't mean up on a stage...lol...I mean sitting with someone munching on chips and pop and just hanging around...I wouldn't play some tunes within ear shot, or with the windows open, etc. Some tunes I've tried for years...and still feel like they sound horrible and just don't work. Are those tunes worth the effort or continuing effort? Sometimes I think not, but on the other hand, sometimes I try again.

NCnotes - Posted - 06/24/2025:  07:45:47

Drowsy Maggie…



slow beginner version, plodding and heavy like lead…

then became faster, driving, but still no spirit…

finally (year 4 for me) it’s got some lift and groove and bounce to it.



like, I could actually stand to listen to myself playing it without groaning…

It’s still not great. Maybe by year 5?



But I think some of my reels in general, are finally getting better. Like, people tap their feet…woohoo!

Edited by - NCnotes on 06/24/2025 07:46:16

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/24/2025:  07:54:33

Jerusalem Ridge. It wasn't until recently that I revisited it. That 4th/5th whatever number, the last part that goes up to the high C has always eluded my because I didn't learn how to land there consistently. Learning Hickman Rag got me there consistently. 

That was more like a 15 year journey lol

tonyelder - Posted - 06/24/2025:  08:50:10

Still working on Johnson Gals - specifically the version recorded by The Tallboys.  Does it still count if it has been a little longer that 5 years?  



Their version seems to really define the melody better than any of the others.  Challenging - for me anyway - to get it "right".  I can play it, but not ready for prime time - can't play it consistently through several rounds. ??????



Indian Ate the Woodchuck, Rhys Jones version / best to me.

 

LIke what was said - I don't work on these kinds of tunes in a non-stop, relentless, and consistent effort.  I realized a long time ago, cramming (for me) does not work that well. If I take that approach - I'll get there; but usually I find that I've cooked in something that has to be undone. I will have a better chance to discover those things if I am patient, and chip away at it over time. 

Strange - and perhaps worthy of a separate topic, but there are a number of tunes that - when I first decided to attempt "getting there" - I figured they would be one of the tunes that would takes "years". ...and, for whatever reason,  they seemed to have fallen in to place, almost effortlessly.You too?

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/24/2025 08:58:33

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/24/2025:  09:02:36

Indian Ate the Woodchuck is another one I visit occasionally and haven't been satisfied with ever. Ed Haley's version (definitive version for me) has details and interesting variances that seem to get ironed somewhat smooth by nearly everyone. The lack of those details distract me to the point that if I play the tune with others, I think of it as a version of the tune rather than the tune that Mr. Haley played. I love Rhys' fiddling and he does a great version of IATW. It's the second part that everyone seems to play differently, including him. Maybe that's just the easiest part to stray from and still keep the essence off the tune. I don't know. It sounds like a "me problem" as the kids say these days. 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/24/2025 09:07:34

tonyelder - Posted - 06/24/2025:  09:32:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Indian Ate the Woodchuck is another one I visit occasionally and haven't been satisfied with ever. Ed Haley's version (definitive version for me) has details and interesting variances that seem to get ironed somewhat smooth by nearly everyone. The lack of those details distract me to the point that if I play the tune with others, I think of it as a version of the tune rather than the tune that Mr. Haley played. I love Rhys' fiddling and he does a great version of IATW. It's the second part that everyone seems to play differently, including him. Maybe that's just the easiest part to stray from and still keep the essence off the tune. I don't know. It sounds like a "me problem" as the kids say these days. 

---

Not a challenge - but - Ed Haley's version on Slippery-Hill sounds pretty much the same as the Rhys version (??) ...maybe I need to re-tune my hearing a bit.      I do realize that Rhys is not playing the tune - note for note - nor the melody with all the same accents. But- in listening to the 2 versions - one after the other - I'm not hearing anything that gets "lost". ...and that's probably me - more than anything else. 

What recording is your definitive version?   ...I'd like to try and hear what you are hearing.

Fiddler - Posted - 06/24/2025:  09:35:10

Here's a couple that I have been playing AT for years and still don't have them comfortable:
Jack Danielson's Reel
Wait Until You Hear This One, Boys!

If you watch the video of Cyril Stinnett playing Jack Danielson's Reel, it will just make you mad. He makes it look SO easy. He doesn't even break a sweat. And his intonation on those shifts is just impeccable!

Both tunes require some technical skills in both shifting and bowing (and intonation!) that I have been struggling with for some time. I feel that it is finally starting come come together. But, I need lots more time in the woodshed!

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/24/2025:  09:52:57

You're right, Tony. I think for me it's a phrasing thing Mr Haley does, a subtle part of his personal style that I am foolishly chasing . I actually heard a couple of details listening to him just now that I hadn't caught previously and may have unlocked the tune for me.

Rhys definitely plays that version (in his own inimitable style) and at 4 minutes long, he likely hits on all of the same variations, I will give it more attention later. I have live recordings of Mr Jones playing single tunes for 7 to 9 minutes each and he puts them through their paces.

I think Grace Forrest does a fine run at the tune too.

youtu.be/SKmd037Yxdg?si=JpIr6SYeDxCT2VIT

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/24/2025 09:54:11

NCnotes - Posted - 06/24/2025:  10:19:07

Adding a musing thought about learning ...



There's "learning a tune" i.e. you can reproduce the melody...That was my only goal when starting out - be able to play it without reading sheet music!



But now here I am a few years later studying Clare vs Sligo style fiddling (I like elements of both?!), the cool Sligo crossbowing ...and now putting the notes together has become mainly about the bowing...and getting the lift/groove/beat...



So you can play "The Mountain Road" (i.e. keep with the group) but then there's really PLAYING the Mountain Road, if you know what I mean - (after studying its bowing, slurring, the way different fiddlers have played it, ornaments, variations, settings, etc etc). A neverending and lifelong journey!

 

tonyelder - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:34:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

You're right, Tony. I think for me it's a phrasing thing Mr Haley does, a subtle part of his personal style that I am foolishly chasing . I actually heard a couple of details listening to him just now that I hadn't caught previously and may have unlocked the tune for me.

Rhys definitely plays that version (in his own inimitable style) and at 4 minutes long, he likely hits on all of the same variations, I will give it more attention later. I have live recordings of Mr Jones playing single tunes for 7 to 9 minutes each and he puts them through their paces.

I think Grace Forrest does a fine run at the tune too.

youtu.be/SKmd037Yxdg?si=JpIr6SYeDxCT2VIT

---

Thanks Billy. I hadn't heard her play it. Relaxed tempo and well done. I think she does a better job of capturing Ed's 3rd part - being a little more "notey" than Rhys. Rhys is certainly playing it a bit faster (does he need to? ...it does match Ed's tempo). I have a hard time believing it - but - the tempo could be the reason why he drops a few notes and uses a few more slurs. Not that he couldn't play it that way - but perhaps he thinks, for the way he plays and what he hears, it would start to sound too rushed or cluttered (his personal taste), And (my personal taste) to me the Rhys variation adds "flavor" by breaking up the overall notey character of the tune. But the tune is "there" - nothing got lost in the translation (so to speak). It is unmistakably "the tune".  And - for me, its easy to hear "Rhys" on the fiddle when he's playing.

Thanks again for the link.

tonyelder - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:45:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCnotes

Adding a musing thought about learning ...



There's "learning a tune" i.e. you can reproduce the melody...That was my only goal when starting out - be able to play it without reading sheet music!



But now here I am a few years later studying Clare vs Sligo style fiddling (I like elements of both?!), the cool Sligo crossbowing ...and now putting the notes together has become mainly about the bowing...and getting the lift/groove/beat...



So you can play "The Mountain Road" (i.e. keep with the group) but then there's really PLAYING the Mountain Road, if you know what I mean - (after studying its bowing, slurring, the way different fiddlers have played it, ornaments, variations, settings, etc etc). A neverending and lifelong journey!

 

---

Yes. I agree. I don't think I have "learned" the tune until I feel the freedom to play without having to pay close attention to how I'm phrasing passages. Left to my own devices, I run the risk of messing it up if I don't "stay on top of it". But when I know it well enough to feel confident in muscle memory - I can relax and even give thought to how I might hear and play it a bit different, or add an accent  / hang an ornament  - without losing my place. And it becomes easier to hear how / what others are playing - to see if I'm playing "in concert" with them.  Especially important when I'm with an unfamiliar group - I still lack the confidence I'd like to have at those times. 

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/24/2025 11:47:32

tonyelder - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:52:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

I have live recordings of Mr Jones playing single tunes for 7 to 9 minutes each and he puts them through their paces.

---

LOL... I meant to add, "Yes. The Sam Bush of old time music."

wrench13 - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:56:59

I dont know about 5 years, but the shuffle in OBS took me a long time to get nailed down, like to the point where its as fast as needed and powerful and able to insert it into tunes and breaks at will. The back and forth alternating string parts in some hornpipes and reels took a long time - maybe 5 years - until I got the lilt and bouncy feel I wanted.

But the lifting of all boats concept - agree 100%. Time spent on one tune will benefit others - how could it not, even if the tunes are not similar.

I'm a believer in tearing a tune apart and working on a small section to either figure it out or work on something special for it. Sunday I spent a good hour or so with 8 notes in the A part of Cheyanne, playing around with timing, phrasing, Gypsie vibrato, and blue notes.

imapicker2 - Posted - 06/24/2025:  13:52:54

After 5 and still not quite there.....

Chucking The Bush...(chucking part)

Pretty Little Indian... (Gerry Milnes version)

Banish Misfortune (my head just can't deal with this one)

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  21:06:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

The Irish set dance "The Blackbird". Finally I got the twist in the 15 measure 2nd part to be musically smooth.

If you're talking about this, I can see why it would take a long time!: 

'youtu.be/8_EVHRw9yFo?si=2lopTT0f4P_8jy-_

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  21:25:35

¡quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

For me anything I play is a work in progress...although, I know what you mean. I've got so many tunes that I would never dare try to play in front of anybody...and I don't mean up on a stage...lol...I mean sitting with someone munching on chips and pop and just hanging around...I wouldn't play some tunes within ear shot, or with the windows open, etc. Some tunes I've tried for years...and still feel like they sound horrible and just don't work. Are those tunes worth the effort or continuing effort? Sometimes I think not, but on the other hand, sometimes I try again.

---

That's the frustrating part of it. I've played these tunes thousands of times, and yet sometimes it feels like I'm not getting any better.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  21:35:44

'/'¡//Yquote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Jerusalem Ridge. It wasn't until recently that I revisited it. That 4th/5th whatever number, the last part that goes up to the high C has always eluded my because I didn't learn how to land there consistently. Learning Hickman Rag got me there consistently. 

That was more like a 15 year journey lol

---

Good for you! I cheat and play it up a 5th in E Aeolian instead of A Aeolian. I don't leave first position in or go above a high B. No one will confuse that version' with Kenny Baker's original, but it saves 15 years!

Edited by - RinconMtnErnie on 06/24/2025 21:41:22

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  21:46:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

Indian Ate the Woodchuck is another one I visit occasionally and haven't been satisfied with ever. Ed Haley's version (definitive version for me) has details and interesting variances that seem to get ironed somewhat smooth by nearly everyone. The lack of those details distract me to the point that if I play the tune with others, I think of it as a version of the tune rather than the tune that Mr. Haley played. I love Rhys' fiddling and he does a great version of IATW. It's the second part that everyone seems to play differently, including him. Maybe that's just the easiest part to stray from and still keep the essence off the tune. I don't know. It sounds like a "me problem" as the kids say these days. 

---

I love that tune. A banjo player I used to play with liked to call that tune, so I felt obliged to learn it. It's a little rusty, so I should work on it.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  21:54:12

.'quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

Here's a couple that I have been playing AT for years and still don't have them comfortable:

Jack Danielson's Reel

Wait Until You Hear This One, Boys!



If you watch the video of Cyril Stinnett playing Jack Danielson's Reel, it will just make you mad. He makes it look SO easy. He doesn't even break a sweat. And his intonation on those shifts is just impeccable!



Both tunes require some technical skills in both shifting and bowing (and intonation!) that I have been struggling with for some time. I feel that it is finally starting come come together. But, I need lots more time in the woodshed!

---

I've never heard of either tune, but through the magic of the internet listened to them both. I really like Wait Until You Hear This One Boys! They both sound challenging.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/24/2025:  22:10:32

''quote:

---

Originally posted by wrench13

I dont know about 5 years, but the shuffle in OBS took me a long time to get nailed down, like to the point where its as fast as needed and powerful and able to insert it into tunes and breaks at will. The back and forth alternating string parts in some hornpipes and reels took a long time - maybe 5 years - until I got the lilt and bouncy feel I wanted.



But the lifting of all boats concept - agree 100%. Time spent on one tune will benefit others - how could it not, even if the tunes are not similar.



I'm a believer in tearing a tune apart and working on a small section to either figure it out or work on something special for it. Sunday I spent a good hour or so with 8 notes in the A part of Cheyanne, playing around with timing, phrasing, Gypsie vibrato, and blue notes.

---

Orange Blossom Special would take me 50 years to play. Every 5 years or so I try to give it a shot and quickly give up!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 06/25/2025:  06:01:11

For me, OBS is on the "maybe-if-i-live-to-be - 100" list...lol. Also, almost anything that has to be in C to work just doesn't work for me. Back up and Push is an example of that. I've tried...I've practiced...just cannot do it. It's not the double shuffles...I can get those, it's the other part...when I play in C I just cannot find my way.

wrench13 - Posted - 06/25/2025:  06:08:01

Earnie the thing that worked for me on OBS shuffle - took a lit cigarette, held it in-between my pinkie and ring fingers on the bow hand, and go into a very dark room. Try the shuffle, you'll see the butt make trails you can easily see. It will help smooth out the bow motion and you can see different patterns, depending on which shuffle you try.
Either reverse C or figure eights are good starts.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 06/25/2025:  09:31:55

Hmmmm.... Well, a decade or more ago I decided to learn all the tunes off of the recording Kenny Baker Plays Bill Monroe. Well, what I learned was that the more I knew of fiddling the more I heard on the recording. So, yes, I can play all those tunes, some better than others. One of the aspects I enjoy is that skills learned one place can show up in another tune or song. Of course, that recording was seconded by banjoist Noam Pikelny with Stuart Duncan handling the fiddle. Nope, I have yet to go there. Play on friends. R/

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/25/2025:  09:58:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

I have live recordings of Mr Jones playing single tunes for 7 to 9 minutes each and he puts them through their paces.

---

LOL... I meant to add, "Yes. The Sam Bush of old time music."

---

Spot on!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/25/2025:  11:37:14

All of them. And still going.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 06/25/2025 11:37:39

NCnotes - Posted - 06/25/2025:  21:15:18

Well, there’s that feeling when you hear somebody with a gift play a tune you know really well - and then all your notions of how to play it, just get thrown out the window…and you realize you didn’t actually KNOW it…
I both love and hate those moments!

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/25/2025:  22:10:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

For me, OBS is on the "maybe-if-i-live-to-be - 100" list...lol. Also, almost anything that has to be in C to work just doesn't work for me. Back up and Push is an example of that. I've tried...I've practiced...just cannot do it. It's not the double shuffles...I can get those, it's the other part...when I play in C I just cannot find my way.

---

I play Back Up and Push, but I play the Skillet Lickers version which is an OT version without double shuffles.

If you play Chinese Breakdown in D, then you might try playing it in C as it works well in either key. I used to like to go back and forth between the keys. That's just one example. You can take any D tune you know and try playing it in C. Then you're not learning a "C tune". You're just playing a tune you already know down a step.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 06/25/2025:  22:17:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by wrench13

Earnie the thing that worked for me on OBS shuffle - took a lit cigarette, held it in-between my pinkie and ring fingers on the bow hand, and go into a very dark room. Try the shuffle, you'll see the butt make trails you can easily see. It will help smooth out the bow motion and you can see different patterns, depending on which shuffle you try.

Either reverse C or figure eights are good starts.

---

Hmm, I guess I've never been bit by the shuffle bug enough to work seriously on it. I must admit that playing with a cigarette butt (or maybe sparklers?} would add a whole other dimension to fiddling!

doryman - Posted - 06/26/2025:  17:57:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

All of them. And still going.

---

Yep. I've been playing fiddle now for exactly five years and a few days, and I'm playing none of my songs to my satisfaction. 

buckhenry - Posted - 06/26/2025:  19:22:32

I've played fiddle for 50 years and I'm still learning new ways to play the old tunes.
The learning never stops.....

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 06/28/2025:  12:37:44

 John, take heart, 5 years really isn't a long time for fiddle. Of course most people never get anything to their satisfaction, but I guess we all get a little closer with time...never arrive though...lol.  But in my opinion, the only ones who play really well in just 5 years are the childhood prodigies...and we all know they're really from another planet...lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 06/28/2025 12:39:56

wrench13 - Posted - 06/28/2025:  14:11:26

People learning fiddle these days have it so easy! Guys like me, Buck and others, who learned pre-anything electronic or digital, had it so much harder. Me, who lived in the fiddle vacuum of New York and Long Island, had 2 hurdles; 1- what to play and 2- how to play. These days the what to play is solved by Youtube. The how to play it, well thats up to the individual and how bad they want to sound good!

ShawnCraver - Posted - 06/29/2025:  07:39:38

probably all of them. fiddle has always been a slow burn for me. messed with it for 15 years before taking it out in public. i've never been in a rush to learn tunes.