alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/08/2025:  15:41:21

From another topic on Festival etiquette... and permission to listen; brought up an interesting comments about recording.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I know nobody mentioned it but I've had many times folks sit and record entire sessions/jams. 

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Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about recording. Everybody experiences life through their phone now. I don't, so I forgot. I'm not big on being photographed, although not much to be done about it. Since I am a big fan of watching Clifftop videos, etc, I shouldn't complain.

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Yeah, phones in everyone's pocket... as well as social media.

Even in cassette days (or bulky camcorders), there was always an issue, when is it okay to record; without permission? While generally default to ask, I found myself guilty of this a few times (it was generally fine).

Does it matter if jam session, to stage performance, or workshop; (maybe other like practicing). Does it matter if the person is somewhat famous, good player, or some intermediate? While some might been perfectly okay with that... others not so much.

Reality is, for various reasons; some folks have always been personally uncomfortable with being recorded, audio, video, or being photographed; that hasn't gone away, as many still are. More so, when it's strangers, without being asked permission. 

Now there is even the social media aspect of posting those online; making them public? Which will make many folks uncomfortable.

While notice many more others doing recording/posting; and nothing can prevent them; doesn't really change whether it's really okay with the person.

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Going back the "should you ask" - Some folks, part of issue is just uncomfortable with idea not being asked.

pmiller510 - Posted - 06/09/2025:  04:56:53

I have to say that unasked for recordings of music sessions really bothers me, especially if the person then goes and posts them on the internet. I have had folks record sessions in which I'm participating; they never ask, and frankly the quality of playing at that time is not something I want posted on the internet with my face attached. I think it's rude to do any recording without asking. Of course, apparently one is being rude if a person asks and then you say no. Definitely a Catch 22 situation. I've sort of gotten used to it, but I don't like it.

I have no problem with someone who wants to record something so they can learn it later. However that is a different thing entirely and should involve a one-on-one conversation or at least a simple request.

Realizing, of course, that some folks think it's just great that people want to record their playing. So it goes.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/09/2025:  05:51:38

I’m of the opinion that one should ask before recording, especially if the intent is to put the recording online.

It does make many players uncomfortable to find that a recording is being made at what is intended to be an informal and unpolished musical gathering. It is particularly daunting for players who are learning to play their instruments, trying to learn tunes, or for those whose aim is not to sound professional but rather to play for fun with a group of like-minded friends. With the ease of recording on a smartphone and posting directly to the internet for the world to view, that can make a player extremely uncomfortable and it can detract from the experience—it’s hard to get into the groove when you have a distraction right in your face.

I agree that there isn’t much of a solution to this. Some musicians or venues with extensive means will make use of technology to jam phones at concerts so that it limits attendees’ ability to record and publicize. For some fans this is a godsend, although others view it as a restriction that limits their enjoyment—a lot of younger listeners tend to like to post on social media about everything they do, and they place more personal value on recordings made from their own vantage point than those available commercially. More old-fashioned venues will make an announcement before the start of an event that phones should be turned off and flash photography or video recording are discouraged. You can’t win that way, either, because some people will appreciate announcements like this being made and others will call it snobbishness to tell others what to do with their devices.

Some musicians are very sensitive about what they put out for public consumption. One of the best violinists I know has made two recordings in his career despite playing in major orchestras and performing internationally for decades. He told me once that he was only happy with one note in one of those recordings. The reason he adores Kreisler so much is that every note in a Kreisler recording is golden, but he feels that in his own recording where he put in all the time and effort to polish to the best of his personal ability, the result was only one note he’d be willing to share if he could meet Kreisler. Of course, to me, the whole recording is wonderful, and I grew up listening to it over and over and always wishing for more.

I tend to think about it this way: I know people who work hard to market themselves online, and I see them really needing to put considerable effort in to be noticed. The overwhelming proliferation of recording may mean that everything gets recorded, like it or not, but casually recorded videos still tend not to go very far unless they’re recorded by people with a significant online following. There’s also the thought that no matter how badly a fiddler plays, there’s always someone out there who will enjoy it. As the saying goes, “Old Time music is better than it sounds,” and nowhere is that truer than at a jam. That might be small comfort for a lot of people, but I don’t know that there’s much of an alternative other than choosing not to play, which is a real shame in an era where the sense of music as a culturally participatory activity is vanishing at an alarming rate.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 06/09/2025:  06:50:53

During the Covid shutdowns there was a friend who had a nice little juice/coffee and she didn't shut down ... After I decided I wasn't going to follow our local government's rules as well, I booked string of Friday sets there--1 hour every Friday... we promoted it as a live event, not live streamed, specified 'no recording' in the event details... and I had someone repeatedly show up, record it, and put it online. That was annoying.

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/09/2025:  09:19:04

I record audio while participating in a jam, but only of tunes I don't know and only enough to get the tune once or twice through. I make it very clear what I'm doing and have never been discouraged, but, I suppose, this is different than what is being discussed.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 06/09/2025 09:19:27

NCnotes - Posted - 06/09/2025:  15:20:50

It's a weird gray area for me...

On one hand, I personally LOVE watching candid videos of live sessions of real people...in kitchens, at pubs...old performances from long-ago festivals...

Yet I find that people are so shy about being recorded. Even if I just ask, "Can I record you playing this, because I love this tune and I want to learn it?" They get nervous and weird.

I personally wouldn't want our sesh to be videotaped and then suddenly see myself on YouTube. Some days I look decent, and other days I look pretty unkempt, hahaha. Amongst friends it's OK...on the internet, I don't want to be spotted that way! Hahaha.

NCnotes - Posted - 06/09/2025:  15:24:10

Another small sidenote-

our low whistle player was feeling his way through a recently learned reel, and he screwed up his face kind of funny as he was trying to remember it...

Both me and my flute friend burst into laughter. Not in a mean way, but his expression was just so....(insert funny scrunchy-eyed emoji). 

Anyway if stuff like that gets "videotaped" with a phone and slapped on the internet without our permission, how would he feel about it...

buckhenry - Posted - 06/09/2025:  17:58:18

This happened to me quit recently; the 'LEADER' of the jam recorded lengthy videos of me from 'BEHIND' without my knowledge or permission, and posted them online. I would not have minded if it was a 'fiddle tune session', but it was entirely a 'sing-song' session and I was playing by ear like I always do to improve my ear, so a lot of my fiddling was experimental.
He did, in the past say he liked my fiddling, and I suspect he recorded for his daughter who is learning violin, he could've just asked me, but I think he already knew what my answer would be.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 06/10/2025:  05:24:10

Most people have good intentions when recording... ..I've been in quieter, intimate jams where a rabble of drunks shows up flashing their phones... i remember it was kind of interesting how they brought mismatched energy... realized it was out of place... and slinked off into the night.

Mobob - Posted - 06/10/2025:  06:36:42

I remember having a similar discussion 50 years ago about cassette recorders and camcorders, they were becoming ever present at contests and jams. Of course, there was no internet then, no YouTube, but tapes got copied and circulated. To me, the big issue is permission to record. And, these days with phones and the web, anyone can post anything without your knowledge or permission, I wonder if there are any legal constraints?

docmarc - Posted - 06/10/2025:  07:52:00

A word of warning.
In the very near future Ai will facially identify every face on the internet. That identity can then back track to names, addresses, financial records, real estate holdings and public records.

Some will accuse me of over reacting.

The FTC reports that consumers lost a record $12.5 billion to fraud in 2024.

How did the criminals get information about their targets?

Get your face off the internet.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/10/2025:  15:33:02

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Originally posted by Mobob

I remember having a similar discussion 50 years ago about cassette recorders and camcorders, they were becoming ever present at contests and jams. Of course, there was no internet then, no YouTube, but tapes got copied and circulated. To me, the big issue is permission to record. And, these days with phones and the web, anyone can post anything without your knowledge or permission, I wonder if there are any legal constraints?

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Some of this is about assumptions. expectations, entitlements, and how have they changed... might be a generational thing.

Going back 50 years ago (maybe more for folks like Doug), to the old small cassette recorder, perhaps because was novelty/unusual, would get eyed/viewed with bit of suspect; so warning about making sure it was okay to record, clear and direct asking (and respecting for some folks it wasn't okay). 

Became a more common sight, small affordable and better quality; not surprised if someone pulled out to record. As well advice, esp for beginners, encourage to record these jam/sessions; to learn tunes and/or study nuances. Maybe bit more assumption of that intent, and it was probably okay; without need really sincere ask. Esp as more accustomed to it, that many folks might not give any thought to it.

Of course the internet, and now social media platforms; ease, changed the distribution sharing aspect... from making cassettes or file sharing private or among limited other musicians...  to a more open public. Again, maybe some folks have become accustomed to it now, see others do it all the time... don't give much thought or just assume it's okay?

anyone can post anything without your knowledge or permission, I wonder if there are any legal constraints?

Not sure of legalities. But kind of brings up ethical... what expectations of what's public and what is personal/private gray area; and has maybe changed? Audio, video, even photo. It comes up with conversations as well, what is okay to record (let alone post/share). Is that it's music make it different?

Of course , when I play in public these days; busk on street/market or playing some public event, bar gig... meant to draw attention.... I anticipate inevitably folks will pull out phone and just take photo, or video. Some do seek permission, especially if have better camera. These are just a short snippet/snapshot (just few seconds to maybe a minute); usually have no idea what they are going to use it for, even when they ask permission, they usually don't tell me; nor share it with me, or link. But seems just personal  capture the moment, memento snapshot, maybe share with friends, "hey I was here, look what interesting thing I saw"? I encourage that, so probably can't expect much legal nor ethical.

OTOH, jams/sessions IMO might be different. 

As the other topic mentioned jams, esp festival campground jams (like Clifftop). They are all technically in public, so no expectation of privacy, thus no permission needed? Some meant to be less public, more out of view, holed away in their campsite, or back of parking lot; seems like not trying to draw a lot of attention, they want some degree of control of privacy? What if it's band practicing? Or perhaps someone teaching a tune/technique more giving a more private lesson?

Similar is those pub sessions or jams in a building. Perhaps what buckhenry or NC Notes mentioned. While might be somewhat open venue; these are not always meant to be same as public performances; might be a bit purposely out of view, the lime light? Certainly not meant to be posted/shared to world on social media, with no control?

Not to say that some folks at jams/sessions welcome it, do want to draw attention, get recorded and have it posted/shared with the whole world. Perhaps because that happens enough now, folks see it enough; assume there should be no issue with any others? Might be a generation thing?

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 06/10/2025 15:43:40

NCnotes - Posted - 06/10/2025:  17:22:23

Yea, the younger generation…they want views, they want likes, they want shares…the more “attention” they get for their content, that translates into monetization. Content is money, these days…



I think that’s why the phones are everywhere.



But I have been to plenty of concerts where they ask people to put the phones away…they say it’s distracting for the performers, etc - but also they probably want to be the sole provider/distributor of the concert footage … they don’t want someone else posting concert moments on social media and getting all the views…

Not to sound all negative and cynical...but money makes the world go round (sigh).

Edited by - NCnotes on 06/10/2025 17:23:23

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/11/2025:  06:19:01

It’s not a straightforward issue, because if one is in a public space (at least in the US), people have a first amendment right to photograph or record. If one is in a private venue, it’s up to the venue to establish and/or enforce rules.

As a musician, if you play in public, you are making yourself available, not only for listening, but also for being recorded. Even if you’re at a private venue, now that everyone carries a recording device everywhere, there’s a high likelihood that you will be recorded.

I do think it’s impolite to record an informal gathering without first asking permission, although I also feel I must play Devil’s Advocate a little and suggest that one should not play in public if one has any concerns about being recorded, and it’s not the listener’s problem if one shows up not having prepared well enough to be comfortable being recorded. If it’s embarrassing to be recorded, it ought to be equally embarrassing to be playing poorly enough to be worried about it.

In this day where so much is recorded, you really have to be doing something extreme for anyone to pay attention. Even videos that get a lot of attention mostly fade into obscurity quickly. Yes, the internet is forever, but it will still take a dedicated search to find something obscure like a casually recorded video of a random fiddler.

Brian Wood - Posted - 06/11/2025:  07:53:34

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

If it’s embarrassing to be recorded, it ought to be equally embarrassing to be playing poorly enough to be worried about it.

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A discouraging thought. Hide in your basement until you're good enough? One's susceptibility to embarrassment generally doesn't correlate with talent. There are plenty of boors without talent, and plenty of shy artistic types.

Mobob - Posted - 06/11/2025:  09:00:17

if I wanted my music on the internet, I would put it there, my decision, not someone else's.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/11/2025:  10:04:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

If it’s embarrassing to be recorded, it ought to be equally embarrassing to be playing poorly enough to be worried about it.

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A discouraging thought. Hide in your basement until you're good enough? One's susceptibility to embarrassment generally doesn't correlate with talent. There are plenty of boors without talent, and plenty of shy artistic types.

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Again, playing Devil's Advocate, but I would point out that while it may seem embarrassing to have a live recording posted online for the world to see and critique, but what's being left out is the fact that those present are also listening to the playing, and if it's not something you'd be proud to share with strangers, why subject friends and colleagues to it?

I would agree that there are a lot of players who are far too eager to make others listen to "no-count squealing," to quote Stephen Vincent Benet, and that is one reason recording can be beneficial. One of the biggest hurdles self-taught players face is a lack of feedback. If you only play in settings where no one is going to say anything if the playing is bad and you don't have a teacher or critical audience to provide feedback, how can you possibly expect to grow as a player?

It strikes me as peculiar that the complaint so often focuses on the fear that an impromptu recording will get out to the wider public. It's rarely a matter of true concern for privacy or a potential loss of income. This idea, when examined closely, reveals that the player has concerns about the quality of the playing and doesn't want strangers or those deemed as more important to realize its deficiencies. Again, there's little concern for the fellow players who have to sit through it and can't just click it away. It's an entirely avoidable problem--unless someone is sneaking into your practice room to record (which would be a punishable violation of privacy), you have the ability to avoid scrutiny by choosing not to play publicly. 

 

If you do choose to play publicly, I think you either have to prepare well enough to be comfortable letting anyone hear it or you have to accept that impromptu performances may not show you in the best light, so you have to have thick skin or the willingness to accept whatever feedback follows, assuming anyone pays enough attention to comment. Even if you look at the recordings posted to this site, you'll find that the comments are usually either various forms of encouragement or they discuss trivia about the material instead of addressing the playing itself.

This topic is especially interesting to me as the son of a professional music critic. My father has always had a very strict policy, albeit an unusual one, to avoid negative comments about players in his reviews of their recordings. I recall very well listening to a recording that he absolutely detested with him when I was little. His review did not include a single word about the playing, just some information for record collectors about the instrumentation and the tempi. The only comment that he made that hinted at his displeasure was something along the lines of "You'll like this recording if this is the sort of recording you like." When he really enjoyed a recording, you'd know it because he would dive deep into the artistic merits of the playing, the understanding of the music and the instruments, and the impact of the recording as the work of someone with something worth hearing. His reviews are aimed at discerning record collectors who want to know what's worth adding to their collections, people who don't want to waste time and energy on disappointment. That translates thousands of reviews over decades that are not cruel, overbearing, unfairly subjective, or damaging to players. Some critics are not so balanced, and they like to take potshots for various reasons, but most of the time, chances are (especially for videos on social media) that the worst you'll face is polite silence or a change of subject to avoid saying anything negative. 

 

On the other hand, we would do well to keep in mind the value of criticism. Many of the great figures in history have become so precisely because of their exposure to criticism, sometimes through forms that are far less kindly. Perhaps Heifetz wouldn't have reached the pinnacle of violin playing had he not been savaged by critics when he began to rest on his laurels as a child prodigy in his adolescence. 

buckhenry - Posted - 06/11/2025:  23:44:17

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

.......while it may seem embarrassing to have a live recording posted online for the world to see and critique, but what's being left out is the fact that those present are also listening to the playing, and if it's not something you'd be proud to share with strangers, why subject friends and colleagues to it?

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It's a jam session, all participants are 'consenting adults'. We are there to enjoy each others company while we hone our musicianship skills. 

I have many vids of me performing online but, thats me in 'performance mode', a little different than jamming in the park....   

ShawnCraver - Posted - 06/12/2025:  06:15:21

This got me to thinking about how I would feel going to a festival like Clifftop with so many cameras around. I'm not a prolific jammer, but like a jam session every now and then... usually it's a time to for me to get away from performing or screens or internet.

Old Scratch - Posted - 06/12/2025:  09:00:12

It's kind of like telling a joke .... There are certain friends that I can tell a joke to, and even if my telling of it is flawed, they're going to get the joke and get a laugh out of it. And then, there are other friends that I wouldn't bother telling the joke to, because even if I told it perfectly, and even if they "got it", technically speaking, they wouldn't REALLY get it, wouldn't find it funny, and would resent having their time and attention imposed upon so. Similarly, what I do and don't do when I'm jamming with a certain bunch is for me and them in that moment; it's not a performance for the wide world for the ages.

Earworm - Posted - 06/12/2025:  10:03:18

Live theatre, as an counter-example, has strict copyrights on recording the music, performances, and stage craft of live productions. It's a matter, I believe of who owns the rights to the original work. It's provable income lost to the production tickets when there are "bootleg" copies out there. It happens anyway, as we all know, but it is actually illegal.

Of course most of us (fiddlers, et al) are playing public domain music in public spaces. Seems simple. But not quite all of it is public domain since some of it really is newer music. And is a jam among random strangers in a park/festival in fact a rehearsal (private) or a performance (public). If you see a jam in progress, but all the people playing are members of a performing band that relies on royalties and tickets for income, do the rules change? I have no answers.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/12/2025:  11:41:11

quote:

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Originally posted by Earworm

Live theatre, as an counter-example, has strict copyrights on recording the music, performances, and stage craft of live productions. It's a matter, I believe of who owns the rights to the original work. It's provable income lost to the production tickets when there are "bootleg" copies out there. It happens anyway, as we all know, but it is actually illegal.



Of course most of us (fiddlers, et al) are playing public domain music in public spaces. Seems simple. But not quite all of it is public domain since some of it really is newer music. And is a jam among random strangers in a park/festival in fact a rehearsal (private) or a performance (public). If you see a jam in progress, but all the people playing are members of a performing band that relies on royalties and tickets for income, do the rules change? I have no answers.

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Private venues can prohibit recording. Yes, it still happens anyway, but in that situation, breaking the rules may have consequences. Public spaces are open to the public (unless they've been reserved for private events), so recording is allowed so long as it poses no credible threat to public safety.

If you're playing at a park, anyone who walks by has the right to photograph or record you. It doesn't really matter whether you consider it practice or performance--playing in public is essentially playing to the public. If you're concerned about a practice session being heard or memorialized, practice at home where you have control over what's promulgated. 

 

Professional musicians play in public parks often. Unless the event is ticketed and enclosed by a security perimeter, members of the public are welcome to listen and record. Some larger public events like fireworks at the Capital have a reserved area for ticket holders,  but the rest of the public can still watch and record from outside the reserved area freely. If the group is rehearsing, jamming, or doing a sound check, the public can listen or record those things as well.

Loss of income at private events is a separate matter, because that involves scenarios where an audience is supposed to pay for admission or for a recording, but the sales are undermined by bootlegging or illicit recording. That tends to be more of a problem for the venues than for the players, though, as musicians usually have a fee to appear, and tickets are sold to cover the cost of the musicians, the cost of operating the venue, and to provide a profit to the venue.

Bluegrasscountryfiddle - Posted - 06/21/2025:  07:18:23

Realistically speaking, people are free to record in public and you have no expectation to privacy, so permission is technically never needed if it’s anywhere considered public or a public event.

NCnotes - Posted - 06/21/2025:  09:40:56

True…
but to me “jams” or “sessions” are more like gatherings with friends, and not performances for the public.

I’ve ‘performed’ in my youth…it involved weekly rehearsals, a dress rehearsal, getting dressed up, arriving early to tune, warm up, sound check, etc. There are certain “expectations” to play at a certain level for listeners.

In contrast, to me a jam/session is like, amble in, buy a drink, have chitchat, dredge around in your brain for some tunes. More like a practice session to me, and not intended for listening pleasure of outsiders. We also have some beginners who we encourage - who will struggle through simple jigs at a glacial pace…I don’t think there should be any pressure on them to play well enough yet for “outsiders” to enjoy! There should be no embarrassment about crashing your set, playing a wrong note, etc…it’s just music amongst friends. At least, that’s the way I feel about it…

If it’s a “gig” sure, I will be dead-on and 101% prepared -
but jams/sessions feel more like “play time” (thankfully!)

(There is a lengendary huge old thread on the session.org btw, called “Is a session a performance” :-D
I think, Nope…haha.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 06/21/2025:  10:14:16

While a session or jam may not feel like a performance to the participants, the act of playing in a public space makes it legally a performance regardless of its intention. That being said, I agree that it’s good for people to just show up and play without worrying about being recorded, but that requires a willingness to accept the reality that anything in the public is accessible to the public.

If privacy is a concern, you can always choose to host jams at your own house. Even then, someone might record without permission, but you have at least more autonomy there. If you’re playing in public, you have no control over who listens or who records. Just as you have the right to play an instrument and make use of the public space, others have a right to make use of it by being present or recording videos.