wrench13 - Posted - 05/28/2025:  11:00:08

The question is how far off, lets say A 440, can you be before you start to notice that your intonation is not right? Judging by the strobe tuner I use, I can tell when I'm off by about 5%, and it really bothers my ears when its much more then that.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/28/2025:  20:03:37

Off by about 5% is about one semitone (5.95%). Perhaps you mean 5 cents? 

I base on harmonic relationship rather than any fixed frequency references (say A440), just the sound of unison, octave, fifths, thirds... and so on.

My ability and degree I might notice, is not the same as what might tolerate. For either it varies, depends on the context; there are a lot of factors. When actually playing most music, it's generally much wider window. (esp dealing with 12TET).

farmerjones - Posted - 05/29/2025:  05:38:47

I haven't checked with a tuner, but the guy that snaps on a capo and doesn't re-tune. C'mon, it's so sharp, how could one not hear it? I've never seen a jammer re-tune. Save one banjer guy, he lived with a tuner balanced on his knee.

I'll have to get back to you, how far off this ends up. Sure, it depends on the frets. 

Edited by - farmerjones on 05/29/2025 05:39:27

wrench13 - Posted - 05/29/2025:  11:26:41

For clarity, I mean 5% off from the intended pitch to the next note, # or b. IE 5% from E to F. God 5% from A to B would be painful. And I also mean while playing, not tuning. I'm a stickler for accurate tuning, putting the brakes on a jam when someone(s) are out of tune.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/29/2025:  13:18:11

If it sounds good i can not only tolerate it, but i can enjoy it more than if someone was playing or singing the "Correct" frequency.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/29/2025:  15:00:08

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

If it sounds good i can not only tolerate it, but i can enjoy it more than if someone was playing or singing the "Correct" frequency.

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Brings up issue of what is "correct"; and some of the inherent issues with intonation and instruments; and subjective nature of music. For example, ET third, sixth, seventh are out of tune by about 15 cents. That said I can generally tolerate them, kind of need to on fretted instruments.

As well, reminds me of how the objective idea of "correctness", with 12TET, now plays a role in premise for using pitch correction or auto-tune software.

There are interesting YouTube content (like Wings of Pegasus), that look at recordings of singers, seeing if detect if used pitch correction or auto-tune... and compare to recordings singers without. Often old recordings before that existed. Those were quite often not always dead on to idea of correct 12TET grid, some notes off by quite a bit (more than 5 cents). Yet most listeners just thought they sounded good. They can then pitch correct or auto-tune those... have you listen and compare... decide if think the original or the corrected version sounds better. In some cases those off grid notes, might seem a bit purposeful, actually sound better (though still subjective). 

But, related to the OP question about noticing...  as often case in that comparison, for most average listeners, they might not really notice significant difference to tell them apart; esp. in the context of the overall music, mix and overall performance. Despite that theory of need to be correct, otherwise people will notice. Perhaps points to that other aspects play a role or might be more important, like overall expressive qualities.

I think for fiddle, or most music with strong rhythmic content, there is also an aspect of speed of notes, held note duration, shorter more percussive; and just the overall rhythmic groove might affect how wide tolerance.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/29/2025 15:07:33

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/29/2025:  15:26:37

What happens to me is that I'll use a clip on tune to get as close as possible and then double check with my ears..

buckhenry - Posted - 05/29/2025:  18:04:25

I don't use the electronic tuner, I didn't bother with it since I used (some-kind-of-tuner-app) to test the intonation of a professional violinist, there was red lines every where. I guess they're using 'just intonation' and I think that means the same difference as between the (E 1st finger D) tuned to the open G string and the same E tuned to the open A string, they're not the same if the violin is tuned in perfect fifths.



I just did this test... noiseaddicts.com/2010/03/can-y...engineer/, and apparently I can hear when it's 6 cents off, that's such a tiny amount it would depend on what I was playing for it to bother me....

Edited by - buckhenry on 05/29/2025 18:05:25

tonyelder - Posted - 05/29/2025:  18:34:54

I've never tried to measure it, and to say I have good intonation is an invitation for some one to say "oh yeah" - and prove me wrong.

Yeap. But for what I play - the music is some what forgiving. I'm usually the one who speaks up when I know I'm off.

boxbow - Posted - 05/30/2025:  09:36:11

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I don't use the electronic tuner, I didn't bother with it since I used (some-kind-of-tuner-app) to test the intonation of a professional violinist, there was red lines every where. I guess they're using 'just intonation' and I think that means the same difference as between the (E 1st finger D) tuned to the open G string and the same E tuned to the open A string, they're not the same if the violin is tuned in perfect fifths.



I just did this test... noiseaddicts.com/2010/03/can-y...engineer/, and apparently I can hear when it's 6 cents off, that's such a tiny amount it would depend on what I was playing for it to bother me....

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I'll have to try this.  I don't have any more objective method of relating cents to semitones to what my ears experience.  And discussing it in terms of wavelength just hurts too much.  

Randy Wade - Posted - 05/30/2025:  12:57:03

I use a tuner or tuning fork to get the A in tune, then tune the rest by perfect fifths. If you tune like this and then check it with the tuner (which is equal temperament) the tuner will show the D a little flat, the G more flat and the E slightly sharp if it has high enough resolution. The violin was tuned this way for centuries before electronic tuners were a thing. I think the instrument resonates better and is more in tune but as they say, YMMV (your mileage may vary) lol.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/30/2025:  14:23:32

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

I just did this test... noiseaddicts.com/2010/03/can-y...engineer/, and apparently I can hear when it's 6 cents off, that's such a tiny amount it would depend on what I was playing for it to bother me....

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Me too, 4 out of 4. In the real world it's somewhat harder than listening to pure sine waves. I also don't claim to play with that accuracy.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/30/2025:  14:26:32

For fiddle music... it depends on the player. I think pitch doesn't annoy me as much as half-hearted playing... which there seems to be an abundance of these days.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/30/2025:  14:56:02

quote:

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Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

For fiddle music... it depends on the player. I think pitch doesn't annoy me as much as half-hearted playing... which there seems to be an abundance of these days.

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Half hearted? Or half-assed? Seems to me most of us put our hearts into it.

Strabo - Posted - 05/31/2025:  03:31:40

Sometimes when I hear that my intonation is off, I notice that I’ve been playing in a half-hearted (half-assed) manner, maybe a bit distracted. And then, when I refocus on the music and give it some additional energy, the intonation comes right back.

I think it’s about whether I’m giving the music my full attention, or not.

Also, when my attention is well focused, I notice that I’m more aware of the vibrations from the body of the fiddle. Feeling the vibrations seems to correlate with having the right intonation,

Old Scratch - Posted - 05/31/2025:  08:00:07

I mentioned this before, not long ago, but I've been finding recently (with age) that, particularly on the E string, I don't hear how far off I am while I'm playing, but if I record and listen back, I can hear it's off (usually sharp). So I've been trying to re-train my ear these days ....

Old Scratch - Posted - 05/31/2025:  08:04:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Randy Wade

I use a tuner or tuning fork to get the A in tune, then tune the rest by perfect fifths. If you tune like this and then check it with the tuner (which is equal temperament) the tuner will show the D a little flat, the G more flat and the E slightly sharp if it has high enough resolution. The violin was tuned this way for centuries before electronic tuners were a thing. I think the instrument resonates better and is more in tune but as they say, YMMV (your mileage may vary) lol.

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Well, finally!  Now I know why the tuner is always showing a little red when the fiddle sounds in tune ... if you're right, that is!

DougD - Posted - 05/31/2025:  08:25:57

A just tuned perfect fifth is close to 2 cents wider than a fifth in 12 tone ET. So if you tune your A string to 440Hz, you can approximate a perfect fifth by tuning the D string about 2 cents flat on the tuner, and the G string a further 2 cents flat for a total of 4 cents. The E string should be tuned about 2 cents sharp on the tuner. Most tuners can show this pretty clearly, or at least give an idea. The app I use can show perfect fifth tuning for the violin anyway, so I don't need to do this, but it does work.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/31/2025:  11:49:31

It's a voice, Cents and stuff doesn't come into it. Your intentions do come into the subjective equation though.

if you are aiming for a D , how sharp should the C# be if you have a D drone going on? or you could be in the key of G with a G Drone going on. How flat should it be then?.... It's subjective like "I....E.. I........ Will always love you ...will always love you....woo...ooowooo....etc

it is Art Not Science.

DougD - Posted - 05/31/2025:  12:12:32

I have friends who sometimes refer to the Henry Reed piece as "Quince Dillon's High C# Tune," even though the goal is a high D. Hard to hit that just right sometimes.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/31/2025:  16:41:19

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

I have friends who sometimes refer to the Henry Reed piece as "Quince Dillon's High C# Tune," even though the goal is a high D. Hard to hit that just right sometimes.

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......which is Exactly why I still have a piece of tape at the high C..