matt milton - Posted - 03/30/2025:  06:33:37

It's only recently that I've began to understand how much difference the design of the bow can make to the tone of the violin. I accidentally left my bow at a friend's place, so had to dust off the old bow I used to play decades ago. Having then got my more recent bow back it was really interesting to compare the two.



The old bow immediately seemed heavier; but produced a much nicer tone. It is much easier for me to sound smooth, and the overall sound is 'woodier' in my opinion and definitely less bright.



There is less risk of scratchiness, particularly in higher registers, and particularly when shifting rapidly from the A to E string (transitions which, I've noticed, risk sounding scratchy/scrappy in my playing). I also find, with this bow, that it is easier to land smoothly when raising my bow from the strings for a pause. I had always assumed that, no matter how much I worked on my tone, I would always have a slightly thin and raspy sound: while I have done my best to improve this, it was revelatory to suddenly find that, without any extra effort on my part, the choice of bow was making a huge difference in tone.



On the other hand, this bow is slightly less easy to maneuvre - so for a fast Irish reel it's harder work. Whereas my other bow can zip across all the strings very easily. Interestingly, when I weighted the two bows they weighed the same; which is hard to believe given that one feels notably heavier than the other. I guess it's more a question of balance than literal weight.



My lighter bow has a thinner tone in my opinion, though I have noticed that (over)tightening it does seem to thicken up its tone a little. There are some tunes for which this bow sounds superior - it seems to let the violin ring out a little more - and some zingy uptempo tunes don't seem lively enough on my 'darker' bow.



This has prompted me to go and try out a bunch of bows and see if I can find a bow that helps me produce a dark, smooth sound but with a bit more manouverability (hate having to spell words like that!).



Are there specific characteristics that make a bow 'darker' in sound? Is it a simple factor of weight? What sort of bows should I be looking at? My budget is low, I should add!

Edited by - matt milton on 03/30/2025 06:36:25

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/30/2025:  08:15:11

quote:

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Originally posted by matt milton

It's only recently that I've began to understand how much difference the design of the bow can make to the tone of the violin. I accidentally left my bow at a friend's place, so had to dust off the old bow I used to play decades ago. Having then got my more recent bow back it was really interesting to compare the two.



The old bow immediately seemed heavier; but produced a much nicer tone. It is much easier for me to sound smooth, and the overall sound is 'woodier' in my opinion and definitely less bright.



There is less risk of scratchiness, particularly in higher registers, and particularly when shifting rapidly from the A to E string (transitions which, I've noticed, risk sounding scratchy/scrappy in my playing). I also find, with this bow, that it is easier to land smoothly when raising my bow from the strings for a pause. I had always assumed that, no matter how much I worked on my tone, I would always have a slightly thin and raspy sound: while I have done my best to improve this, it was revelatory to suddenly find that, without any extra effort on my part, the choice of bow was making a huge difference in tone.



On the other hand, this bow is slightly less easy to maneuvre - so for a fast Irish reel it's harder work. Whereas my other bow can zip across all the strings very easily. Interestingly, when I weighted the two bows they weighed the same; which is hard to believe given that one feels notably heavier than the other. I guess it's more a question of balance than literal weight.



My lighter bow has a thinner tone in my opinion, though I have noticed that (over)tightening it does seem to thicken up its tone a little. There are some tunes for which this bow sounds superior - it seems to let the violin ring out a little more - and some zingy uptempo tunes don't seem lively enough on my 'darker' bow.



This has prompted me to go and try out a bunch of bows and see if I can find a bow that helps me produce a dark, smooth sound but with a bit more manouverability (hate having to spell words like that!).



Are there specific characteristics that make a bow 'darker' in sound? Is it a simple factor of weight? What sort of bows should I be looking at? My budget is low, I should add!

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These are good questions, but beware as you approach the entrance to the rabbit hole of violin bows! There are a number of factors that contribute to a bow's character, enough that in the end, your best course is generally to simply try plenty of them to see what works best. 

 

While most bows roughly follow a pattern that can be traced back to Tourte, as you learn more about them you discover that there are many stylistic differences among makers. The more you study them, the greater those differences will become. But attaching those stylistic differences to tonal outcomes just doesn't work reliably. While some makers are fairly consistent in their work, others are all over the place, even if using the same wood and templates.

A bow's character comes from a number of things such as wood density, grain, sound radiativity, thicknesses, camber, the shape of the head, balance,  and supplness of the stick. On top of that there's the hair itself; poor quality hair or a bad rehair can change the way the bow performs to the extent that it will feel alien to you.

Some might argue that a heavier bow will produce a darker sound and a lighter one will produce a brighter one, but I haven't found this to be a reliable rule. I do think bows have a personality of their own, but the player is a vital part of the equation, and a bow that suits one player perfectly will not always be a good fit for another.

Because of all the complexity that goes into a bow's performance, the best course of action is to simply set a budget and then either follow the recommendations of your luthier or teacher or just try out a number of bows to see what works and what doesn't. Play them yourself and have someone else listen to you to see if the opinions correlate about what's best. 

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/30/2025:  09:22:21

I had a similar experience. My carbon fiber bow has an issue (I wore the pad down and the metal winding came undone) so went back to my original wood bow. It used to be that this bow would get to bouncing on occasion and in high humidity it's still useless due to an inability to tighten it enough. BUT I love the sound it produces. I always kept it for waltzes, but now, nearly thirty years down the road, I have better bow control so no bounce, but I'll likely still consider upgrading if I can find a wooden one that is balanced more like the carbon fiber was and had tone. Weight of both is on the lighter side iirc. I already have a maker in mind whose bows I have played. Each one was lovely and had great balance.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 03/30/2025 09:25:43

farmerjones - Posted - 03/30/2025:  09:38:00

Are both bows round or octagonal?
Though they weigh the same, there could be a different balance point.

Hair: How old each? How much?
Rosin: Kind/brand? Age?
Assuming both are straight. Assuming both grips and wraps are same?
Brings us to stiffness and camber.
A stiffer stick one doesn't have to push, but unforgiving of bad form. Tone? Guessing, it's how you deal with the stiffness or softness. I do know you can't really get a stiffer bow by tightening up the hair.
Having an overtightened bow feels to me like having a yardstick in my hand. Compared to a well cambered, stiff bow, it is more like having a wooden dowel. There is much less "flop" or rotational moment.

wrench13 - Posted - 03/30/2025:  10:12:02

Tough questions! Good advice though - you just gotta try a bunch of them. And I think hair and rosin play a bigger part of these tone qualities your talking about. To me bow weight, balance point, stiffness - these relate more to playability and ease of use/doing certain things on the fiddle. Tone -hair and rosin.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:53:52

As to weight and stiffness, heavier and stiffer sticks give a player with an attacking style the ability to push more without the stick bottoming out as easily. Light and flexible sticks require a more delicate touch.

A century ago, lighter sticks were preferred in general, so older bows from that era tend to be a bit more whippy and come across as soft to many modern players. Over time the preferences of players have shifted toward more edge and power, and heavier, stiffer sticks have become more popular along with higher tension strings. In his day, Sartory’s bows seemed stiff and awkward to many players, but now that stiffer bows are more popular, Sartory’s bows have become extremely desirable.

If you know bows and players well, sometimes you can get a good sense for which ones will work well together.

Fine bows have an elasticity to them that you don’t find in mediocre bows. That elasticity is independent of the weight and stiffness of the stick.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/31/2025:  06:00:10

Good pern. bows have a similar weight range so. . . .
But I look at stiffness the opposite. My bows job is to de-power my right limb. Stiff transfers energy more directly. More sensitive. A thought will drive the bow. While a mushy bow looses all the energy.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 03/31/2025:  06:38:41

This is a good topic. Thanks for the question and all the answers. R/

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/31/2025:  06:47:44

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Good pern. bows have a similar weight range so. . . .

But I look at stiffness the opposite. My bows job is to de-power my right limb. Stiff transfers energy more directly. More sensitive. A thought will drive the bow. While a mushy bow looses all the energy.

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Good pernambuco bows are all over the  place in weight. While 60g is considered the modern standard for new making, fine bows do not adhere to that standard very much. Lots of bows even in the $100k+ range are under 60, but there are also many fine bows that weigh as much as 65. When a bow is balanced well, it doesn't feel as heavy as it is. Even 1g of weight difference is considerable in bows, so when you're looking at a range that covers about 10g, that's a vast amount of variation. 

 

Stiffness does make energy transfer more direct, but there's a limit to what's good. Compare it to the bicycle industry--carbon frames are extremely popular at all levels because their stiffness provides incredible energy transfer while pedaling. However, a frame that's too stiff causes so much vibration that it's hard to ride. The best frames are designed carefully with varying layup profiles and shapes and thicknesses to allow for the right amount of compliance so the ride is fast but not painful. Bows are the same way--they need a certain elasticity to absorb the unwanted vibration while promoting the energy profile that is desired. 

GeorgeH - Posted - 03/31/2025:  07:10:10

As the bow is drawn across the string, the thousands of hard microscopic shards of rosin sticking on the bow hair “pluck” the string causing it to vibrate. The string of the violin then vibrates against the hairs of the bow causing the hair of the bow to vibrate, too. This vibration of the hairs is transferred to the stick and the stick dampens the vibrations by absorbing the energy. At the same time, the pressure of the bow on the string is dampening the vibrations of the string.

So you have a very complex system going on: the hair vibrating the string; the string vibrating the hair; the stick dampening the vibrating hair; and the hair dampening the vibrating string.

In my opinion, the acoustic qualities of a violin bow come from how it dampens the vibrating hair. For example, bow makers have been experimenting with design of the head of the bow for centuries to try to make a “better” bow. Why? Because the bow head is going to be the place where the hair vibrates directly against the stick and will influence how the hair vibrations are dampened.

I think that “soft” “whippy” bows and bows with large heads and thick wood in back of the head tend to over-dampen the vibrating hair. I think this makes the response between the bow and the string sluggish and dull. French bow makers like François Nicholas Voirin made beautiful bows with more refined heads and narrower wood in back of the heads which tunes the dampening effect of the stick and hence yields a much more lively and responsive bow that is capable of drawing many colors of tone while also giving precise feedback to the hand of the player.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/31/2025:  08:31:25

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Good pern. bows have a similar weight range so. . . .

But I look at stiffness the opposite. My bows job is to de-power my right limb. Stiff transfers energy more directly. More sensitive. A thought will drive the bow. While a mushy bow looses all the energy.

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Good pernambuco bows are all over the  place in weight. While 60g is considered the modern standard for new making, fine bows do not adhere to that standard very much. Lots of bows even in the $100k+ range are under 60, but there are also many fine bows that weigh as much as 65. When a bow is balanced well, it doesn't feel as heavy as it is. Even 1g of weight difference.  . .

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I said good. I didn't say fine. I can't afford fine.

Then they put wraps of different material for what? I used to cut wraps off. Yes, including silver. Until I found for me, it wasn't the weight as much as the stiffness. Watch my videos. I have 10inch wrists. I shouldn't even be allowed to play a fiddle.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/31/2025:  10:23:11

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Then they put wraps of different material for what? I used to cut wraps off. Yes, including silver. Until I found for me, it wasn't the weight as much as the stiffness. Watch my videos. I have 10inch wrists. I shouldn't even be allowed to play a fiddle.

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We're you here when Pogo was doing all sorts of experiments with adding tiny amounts of weight to his bow? 

farmerjones - Posted - 03/31/2025:  10:39:02

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Then they put wraps of different material for what? I used to cut wraps off. Yes, including silver. Until I found for me, it wasn't the weight as much as the stiffness. Watch my videos. I have 10inch wrists. I shouldn't even be allowed to play a fiddle.

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We're you here when Pogo was doing all sorts of experiments with adding tiny amounts of weight to his bow? 

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I remember Pogo, but I don't remember that. God rest his verbose Soul.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 03/31/2025:  10:51:06

quote:

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Originally posted by farmerjones

I said good. I didn't say fine. I can't afford fine.

Then they put wraps of different material for what? I used to cut wraps off. Yes, including silver. Until I found for me, it wasn't the weight as much as the stiffness. Watch my videos. I have 10inch wrists. I shouldn't even be allowed to play a fiddle.

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I mentioned fine bows as an example because they are the bows that receive the most scrutiny. That does not mean that less expensive bows are all uniform (they certainly aren't).  If you go through a pile of cheap German bows from a century ago, they'll be mostly on the light to very light side. If you look at commercial German bows from the 70s and 80s, they can range from fairly standard to clublike. When you order from a Brazilian bow company, you can select bows by weight down to the gram. 60g is what shops tend to prefer, but weights vary. Carbon fiber bows tend to be more standardized because the weight is more predictable at a given thickness.

Bows are wound with various materials for a few reasons. First of all, the winding is a critical part of the balance of the bow. Bowmakers select the material (e. g. gold, silver, nickel, tinsel silver or gold, whalebone, thread, or leather and then choose a length and gauge that will  properly set the balance point. The thumb grip is also measured to be part of the equation. Removing those parts distorts the balance and therefore the playing character of the bow. Restorers go to great trouble to match original materials when they must be replaced, and repairmen will adjust these elements to rebalance a bow. The effect of cutting off the winding might be compared to that of cutting the wings off of the f holes on a violin. 

 

The winding and thumb grip are also in place to protect the stick. Years of use wear deeply on the handle and especially the areas where the fingers and thumb contact. By covering those spots (mostly) it prevents a lot of material from wearing away. Baroque bows had plain sticks without windings or thumb grips, but over time makers realized that a change was needed to protect the handle. It was at that time that bows began to be treated as more than accessories to the instrument and considered carefully in their making.

The choice of winding and thumb grip have aesthetic value as well. Makers will sometimes choose materials that seem to suit the style of the bow (perhaps timeline it's a copy of an old French bow) or its wood. Since metal fittings are part of the frog, the winding is chosen in concert with them. Even the type of leather can make a surprising visual difference to the bow's impact. 

Balance makes a bigger difference than weight. Stiffness makes big difference as well, but there are stiff bows that are weak tonally and light bows that pull a wide and fat tone, and everything in between. One of the best bows I've ever had the opportunity pleasure of playing was a monster at 65g but it was balanced so well that in my hand I would've sworn it was 59. I weighed it several times and even recalibrated the balance because I was so surprised by what it read.

Having big hands or wrists can complicate things, but it doesn't mean playing is impossible. Ole Bull and Mischa Elman had huge hands. Itzakh Perlman has giant hands. You're in good company!

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 03/31/2025 10:57:11

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/31/2025:  15:20:50

Rich -- Thanks for the dissertation! In any case, my favorite bow among my four remains a round-shafted Chinese bow I bought new at one of L.A.'s better violin shops. It feels better in my right hand. It delivers a bigger, more luxurious tone. I like it more than any of my German bows.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 03/31/2025 15:22:06