HappyTune - Posted - 03/14/2025:  20:00:35

I just wondered, how do you improvise fast fiddle tunes (other than playing licks) I just can’t think that fast! What’s your brain process?!

farmerjones - Posted - 03/14/2025:  20:08:35

So when you say improvise, do you mean catching the melody by ear, and playing it in real time?

Or embellishing a melody on the fly by ear?

Are you talking about a tune one already knows, or one never heard previous?

Edited by - farmerjones on 03/14/2025 20:11:23

HappyTune - Posted - 03/14/2025:  20:30:55

The former for both.
I can go somewhere when the tune is slow but fast, it’s basically impossible! :|

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/14/2025:  21:09:39

Something you can try when everybody else is going at a million miles per hour is to just do simple, long one note pulls.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/14/2025:  21:13:54

I most often just try to get sense of the simple basic melodic line, and then maybe embellish on that.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/14/2025 21:14:21

wrench13 - Posted - 03/15/2025:  04:10:28

Ok this I do quite often. its not easy and to do it well is hard. Some suggestions:
Know the melody well
Know the chord structure of the tune
Have a 'bag o' tricks' at your immediate command for all sorts of keys and phrases
Have really good bow control; be able to change bow patterns etc on the fly
Be able to think ahead on the melody, like auditorily visualizing what you want to do
Relax!!!
Confidence!

I find most fiddle tunes are made up of smaller segments that appear in others too. Study these snippets and create variations on them. They dont need to be 2 bar improv wonders, most times tweaking them can make a solo memorable and different.

Good Luck

Strabo - Posted - 03/15/2025:  04:47:52

If you know the chord flow and the double stops that fit those chords, you have a good start on it.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/15/2025:  05:07:09

Johnny Gimble said, 'get so if you can hum it, or whistle it, you can play it.'



Thing is, one can bounce a bow faster than whistle or hum. So one just thinks it.

It does depend on your musical depth and vocabulary. If you're plane spoken, or if you're more sophisticated.

As far as tempo: One can double, match or cut the beat in half and still be in time. 

Edited by - farmerjones on 03/15/2025 05:10:19

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 03/15/2025:  08:44:36

Know which cords go together in the key. Memorize blues pentatonic scales that go with the chords. Pick up a few of the melody notes, preferable the first few and the last few. Then play double stops and blues scales with the chord changes. Add syncopation to your break. No, it is not easy. But it does get easier with time. Enjoy the process.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/15/2025:  10:52:19

I pretty much only play fiddle tunes on my fiddle so I don't think about chord progressions or breaks... Sometimes I'll "quote" other players. For ex: I play this tune called Phoebe Ice/Up Jumped Jenny. I'll vary the phrases and "quote" the players I got it from, drawing from sources I've "studied". Sometimes it's in the moment... digging in a long downbow with a drone... playing around with phrasing/syncopation... changing up melody/bowing sometimes predictably and sometimes finding a "solution" in the moment...

improvise
/?m?pr?-v?z?/
intransitive verb
To make, compose, or perform with little or no preparation.
improvise a solution to the problem; improvise variations on a melody.
To make or provide from available materials.
improvised a dinner from what I found in the refrigerator.
To make, compose, or perform something extemporaneously.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/15/2025:  14:13:49

Yes, definition.
I asked for that. Didn't get it.
Many in the piano community define improvising as simply playing by ear.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/15/2025:  15:06:52

Yeah, Theory, licks, motifs and all that. Grapelli said improvising is composing on the fly, who am i to disagree?

buckhenry - Posted - 03/15/2025:  18:11:13

Chord-Tone Scale... A scale that emphasises the notes of the chord, common in bluegrass: Omit the 6th ascending, and omit the 7th descending. Each chord has a different scale.

Snippets/Motifs... Short phrases of four note/finger patterns, played in sequences or mixed. Create, memorize and transpose them. Eg, 1 2 3 4 can be played in any key.

Basic Melodic Line...Follow the contour of the melody: 'Billy in the Low Ground' is a good example; it moves through an octave in the first few bars, vary the notes in between. Cultivate an internal sense of the phrase.

Change/Improvise just one phrase of the tune at a time.

Avoid learning (some) tunes note by note to force yourself to improvise, but know the chord progression.

As everyone has stated..

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/16/2025:  23:52:42

I see these chord tones in MY head.

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/16/2025 23:55:46

Fiddle Chord Tones

 

Erockin - Posted - 03/17/2025:  04:03:41

These days I'd say, "faster the tune, less time to hear my mistakes"

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/17/2025:  05:58:52

I think in jazz, blues, and Country/Americana music where chord progressions drive the music people approach improvising differently than fiddle tunes... licks, tricks, theory...

but the questions was about "fiddle tunes"... traditional fiddle tunes aren't based on chord progressions

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/17/2025:  08:18:17

You need to practice thinking at that pace. If it were me, I'd listen to a lot of music that is above your comfort zone and get the brain used to it. Start trying to make stuff up, in your head while you listen. Improv, the kind that's not just a bunch of licks strung together but on the spot creativity, also requires practice. Unfortunately, I can't tell you how to be creative. Maybe record your slow improv and try repeating it note for note , then try speeding up your newly created mprov lines (metronome helps, no need for the backing music, it's an exercise). As stated at the top, the brain needs to practice creating  the music at the speed of thought essentially. 

Improv on a fiddle tune is tricky if you want the listener to know you're playing the tune (and I assume there will be a listener, even if it is just you)

Edited by - ChickenMan on 03/17/2025 08:24:33

farmerjones - Posted - 03/17/2025:  12:19:21

You can't throw a curveball to yourself. What I did was listen to the radio, with my fiddle in hand. Find the key to the song, and if there was enough time, try to play along. Even if it was just a note or two. The song would end, and another would start, and the process would start over.
Another thing I did is learn standard fiddle tunes. Five tunes learned turns into ten tunes, turns into 20 tunes, etc. Tunes have sisters, brothers, and cousins. Tunes have common keys. If I heard a tune somewhere, by the time I had my fiddle in hand, it would usually come out in D. Then, eventually, i may find the common key and may have to transpose. That's a good drill, too. If you really want to get familiar with a tune, transpose it to a key that's more than just moving over a string. Transpose, not transcribe.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/17/2025:  12:59:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

I think in jazz, blues, and Country/Americana music where chord progressions drive the music people approach improvising differently than fiddle tunes... licks, tricks, theory...



but the questions was about "fiddle tunes"... traditional fiddle tunes aren't based on chord progressions

---

RE: fiddle tunes  i find mostly revolve around the pentatonic scales and their neighbours/companions. IE: only 1 note difference between the Pentatonic minor or major scale that forms the basis for the tune.

The pentatonic scales and their inversions (for me), are derived from the modes of the major scale minus the 4th and 7th of the Ionian mode or Major scale.

if you play a pentatonic version of the tune substituting any missing notes from the 7 note (ionian mode, or major scale) with standard harmony notes within the pentatonic scale. (eg: 3rds, 6ths and 5ths/4ths, or chromatic lead in notes etc). That will yield a basic pentatonic improvisation for the tune with added notes. And incidentally a bunch of double stops to play around with also.

Then there are rhythms, subdivisions, dynamics,tone, ornamentations and effects  etc to play around with...."Fill your boots"... But you will still need the theory, techniques, creativity and knowledge etc to do so....Or you can just wing it, as i did when i first started

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 03/17/2025 13:01:37

buckhenry - Posted - 03/17/2025:  17:20:25

Improvising on a tune is the same as playing a variation on the fly. In Classical music this is called 'Theme and Variation', where the chords in the latter follow exactly those in the theme. There might be some closely related substitutes, but the order of the chords (chord progression) will be the same on each repetition for the purpose of harmonisation.

The theme can be based on a chord progression, if not, it is allotted a set of chords anyway, so the variations will harmonise with the accompaniment. The theme must also harmonise within it self by making emphasis on chord tones which determines the type of chord for the accompaniment. The same harmony needs to run through each variation so the listener still actually hears the main theme.

Depending on which rhythm is chosen for the improvisation, the fast rhythms have less time to think about every note, thus we think in note groups, motifs or snippets which have been assimilated into the subconscious mind. This allows us to focus on the notes that outline the harmony and fill in between these notes with motifs and snippets.

HappyTune - Posted - 03/19/2025:  14:56:03

Uh oh, I have to learn theory..? Eek I didn’t think I needed it !!

HappyTune - Posted - 03/19/2025:  14:58:08

Thanks everyone. I’m gonna try and get in some extra practice time this week, hopefully I’ll get better at this!

Edited by - HappyTune on 03/19/2025 14:58:22

pete_fiddle - Posted - 03/19/2025:  15:15:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by HappyTune

Uh oh, I have to learn theory..? Eek I didn’t think I needed it !!

---

it is a lot easier to do, than it sounds when someone is trying to explain it.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 03/19/2025:  15:45:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by HappyTune

Uh oh, I have to learn theory..? Eek I didn’t think I needed it !!

---

Music Theory for Dummies... a fun read and you'll LOVE it.

wrench13 - Posted - 03/19/2025:  17:24:28

Theory? Well you kinda need a bit, or at least know what notes you can select from for a given key and what effect different ones yield. Me, I know a bit but more like I know when to throw something outside the expected. Useful is a good set of ears and good taste! Fast or slow, I think good improvisation needs those.

farmerjones - Posted - 03/19/2025:  17:50:42

Knowing the difference between a note and a chord. Knowing what a key is. Possibly knowing Nashville numbering. Knowing a large percentage of tunes have three chords or less. This little bit of 'theory' helps answer how it's done.

Edited by - farmerjones on 03/19/2025 17:51:26

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/19/2025:  18:17:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by HappyTune

Uh oh, I have to learn theory..? Eek I didn’t think I needed it !!

---

Might not need it; or at least not much. I think it depends on goal; what interpretation/idea as "improvising"; and to what idea of fiddle tune. 

A music theory application approach is one possible way to go about it, but there are other possible. 

Most of the improvising I do for fiddle tunes is different than what others mention.

In regard to comment of thinking fast? To be honest when playing tunes, improvising on fly; I don't really do much active "thinking" in terms of type of any the analytical and applications; music theory, math, calculations, formulas, chord progression and such. Nor really conscious thinking names of notes, chord or in terms of numeric interval/scales, nor rhythm.

Mostly what I do falls more under idea of "audiation". That is, starts with you can imagine hearing the tune in your head, maybe bit like having a tape recorder in head. But extends to imagining the sound of musical ideas. An example is like diddling or scat singing.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/19/2025 18:21:43

buckhenry - Posted - 03/19/2025:  18:50:14

Uh oh, I have to learn theory..? Eek I didn’t think I needed it !!

Well, it's just basic theory, the kind you learned in high school, and you can learn it all just by sitting at the piano.

You'll need a basic understanding of...

The rhythmic pulse and it's subdivisions.... if you can clap; patter cake, patter cake baker's man, you're on your way.

Scale Theory... if you know the major scale structure, you're more than half way there.

Chord Theory (Triads=three notes)... if you can play every third note and determine  the quality, you've got it. 

Chord Progression Theory..... if you can play C E G on the keys at the same time then move that shape up to D F A, retain that shape and move anywhere on the keys, that's it...

Melodic Cell Theory.... if you take four notes eg; CDEF and arrange them in other  ways you can think of then begin on another note eg; DEFG, you've got a sequence. Play them on the right chords, play a mix of melodic cells, now you're improvising. 

Dick Hauser - Posted - 03/21/2025:  13:01:11

Embellishing the melody while playing the tune by ear. That is the way most banjo players play. Memorize "licks" for the various keys, and over time developing the ability to recognize where a "lick" will fit in. I learned a lot from Steve Kaufman's "Parking Lot Series" books/CDs. I sometime start to "lose" the melody while playing guitar, and will, without thinking, just use a lick I learned from from those four series. They usually work.

doryman - Posted - 03/21/2025:  14:17:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

but the questions was about "fiddle tunes"... traditional fiddle tunes aren't based on chord progressions

---

Of course they are.  Just because we don't think in chords when we play a fiddle tune, it doesn't mean that the tune is not based on fairly run-of the-mill chord progressions.   A fiddle tune played in the key of C typically starts with a C chord, ends with a C chord and uses the chords C, F and G in the tune, and perhaps the relative minor, Am.  

Brian Wood - Posted - 03/21/2025:  14:51:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

but the questions was about "fiddle tunes"... traditional fiddle tunes aren't based on chord progressions

---

Of course they are.  Just because we don't think in chords when we play a fiddle tune, it doesn't mean that the tune is not based on fairly run-of the-mill chord progressions.   A fiddle tune played in the key of C typically starts with a C chord, ends with a C chord and uses the chords C, F and G in the tune, and perhaps the relative minor, Am.  

---

Both of these positions make a certain amount of sense to me. Many fiddle players come from playing chord instruments and hear the tunes through that window. I think chordally myself, for the most part. But I believe many old fiddle tunes evolved, or were composed, without direct reference to chord structures. That's partly why fiddle tune melodies often do not follow strict harmonic rules. That's why using 5 chords, or 3rd-less chords, is particularly useful for accompanying fiddle tunes. If you play chords with major or minor 3rds, for instance, in many tunes you're pulling the listeners ear one way or another against competing major or minor 3rds. That can be a bluesy effect when playing major 3rd chords against minor third melody notes. But not all tunes are blues tunes. And trying to change from major to minor chords to follow a melody can sound busy and contrived. Using 5 chords leave an openness that allows the melody freedom of form while still having the fullness of accompaniment. Anyway, my main point is that melodies can both exist with or without reference to chords. It's in the head of the beholder.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 03/21/2025 14:52:31

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/21/2025:  15:01:38

The simplest, and still mightily effective soloing trick, is to simply play the Third (the "mi" in do-re-mi) throughout the solo until the end, at which time you go back to the Do. When you do the solo, slide up to the mi, both slowly and quickly. Make it chug with shuffle bowing. Try sliding down a bit from the mi to the bluesy Minor Third maybe once or twice. It's also fun to slide upward, either slowly or quickly, to the Do that sits at the top of scale. If you do it with style, sass & conviction you'll be one cool mother.

Brian Wood - Posted - 03/21/2025:  15:17:30

Answering the original question, I think that fast is the issue even when you're playing just a memorized melody. Linking your reflexes to the quick rhythm so you feel comfortable, not rushing, is the key. Eventually, improvising develops from everything you've played before, so you begin using bits from here and there. Lots of improvising by accomplished players is actually a comfortable reach into a well-worn bag of tricks. Other than that, a basic familiarity with modes and arpeggios helps. If you strive to improvise in such a way that you're playing things you have never in any way played before you're in trouble.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 03/21/2025 15:18:13

NCnotes - Posted - 03/21/2025:  15:48:09

Yea, I had asked some of the good improv players at the BG/americana jam…
the banjo guy told me to practice lots of Arpeggios in the different keys.

The flatpicking guitar guy said he knew certain tunes so well that he had groups of notes and licks premade in his memory…things that he had tried before which had worked well.

wrench13 - Posted - 03/21/2025:  17:27:30

I think knowing the chord structure of any tune or song is key to being able to improv to it. Its hard for players of chord instruments, like guitar, to transition to what is basically a linear one like fiddle. And fiddle only players really don't think in terms of chords for songs and tunes. Most times if you ask a fiddler what the chords for a tune are, you get a blank stare! I think you need both, the knowledge of scales, arpeggios etc AND chords to be effective in improvising. There is more to it of course, but without those, you're kinda swinging at the fence with a blindfold on.

The 'at speed' thing is a slightly different topic. SLow and medium tunes can be improvised to; they give you a bit more time to think ahead but any klunkers are going to really stick out there. But those give you the chance to make something with them unexpected and work. Andy Reiner gave a class at Fiddle hell a few years ago, and really drove home that that you can make any mistake sound intentional, if you really sell it! Fast improv is just a matter of working at it, sharpening the mental reflexes a bit to anticipate things quicker. But if you can't play fast to begin with, trying to improvise at 140+bpm is not going to work!

buckhenry - Posted - 03/22/2025:  19:21:56

Phrasing is also an important aspect; nearly every tune is constructed of even sections, and those sections are divided by even phrases, and these phrases divided again into snippets/motifs/note groups/licks/melodic cells. What ever we call them they're short finger patterns over any type of scale; chromatic, diatonic, pentatonic, arpeggiated..... And they all need to make harmonic sense by emphasising (on the pulse) the chord tones (arpeggios) within the chord, and that they target the chord tones of the next chord.

These 'short finger patterns' need to be practiced at tempo so they become a subconscious action, they can then be fitted into the phrase. A good sense/feeling/perception of the 'phrase' can be achieved by becoming familiar with common musical phrases such as the last phrase from the tune 'Arkansas Traveller'. When that phrase is kept in mind as we run through our 'practiced snippets' the tendency will be to match the phrase lengths. Another common phrase to keep in mind would be "Shave And A Hair Cut...Two Bits"... We could run through an entire tune repeating this phrase using our mixed up 'snippets', of course the rhythms don't need to match just the phrase length.

Erockin - Posted - 03/26/2025:  05:35:09

Back on this topic for a sec....Even with slow or medium paced tunes, I'm not able to improvise. On all other instruments but the fiddle I can improvise. That's really how I've always played but with the fiddle, I have learned some tunes, note for note. So to go outside of the melody seems wrong to me. Unless it's a happy mistake. Therefore the faster ones are easier to make mistakes. Now if I'm just jamming along to something that's not a fiddle tune I'm able to make things up.

wrench13 - Posted - 03/26/2025:  05:52:08

Erock, I get that, you learn a fiddle tune it gets imprinted in your head. What I do is take a few measures, listen to just that and come up with alternates. Seems to work best for me on the endings for A and B parts, but some like Salt Creek and similar, that G chord in the A part screams for improv. You don't necessarily need to use the alternates, but your head will already have them in mind and can fuel other on the spot ideas. Works for me anyway.

boxbow - Posted - 03/26/2025:  09:37:55

It's easier for me to improvise on a tune that I learned by ear and harder to do so with a tune I learned from sheet music. Different mental processes, I think.

It's a fiddle. Use some slides and slurs where appropriate.

Improvising also includes leaving out some notes or continuing to bow a note longer before returning to the tune already in progress. Tastefully, that is.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/26/2025:  14:28:25

It still boils down to processing at speed, being able to both play at whatever tempo while also "thinking" at that tempo. I put that in quotes because for me, and I think for most, when I improvise it is truly spontaneous most of the time, no thinking involved. In my case, there are also usually no preconceived licks involved, mostly because I'm not one to learn licks. Licks sound like, well, licks.



Anyway, thinking at tempo requires practice too. Practice listening closely, taking it in fully. I'd say focus on one bluegrass break, or really better, one full song and just the fiddle. Hear the back up fiddling too.  Listen over and over until you absolutely know what's coming next, you've memorized it without playing it. Move on to the next tune or song, rinse and repeat. For a greater effect, do the same again only focus on the banjo (this takes effort for me if it's bluegrass, but old time is never a problem). Pretty quickly you'll find just hearing it has improved. I often try to"carry" the entire song in my head. Along the way, just whistle or hum, at tempo, the melodies you think you've memorized, you can be figuring the out on the fiddle even but I do it allot when walking the dog out doing the dishes.  You might find the brain will show some flexibility and start mixing in some of the banjo break or the mandolin break.

Copying (by ear always) the record is the first step most people did before the invention of the interwebs and look at the list of players that is. You can't easily find the notes you want play without first learning the possible paths between them. If you want to practice arpeggios by all means do it. And if you simply play the melody and then throw in something close to that sweet Kenny Baker ending but not exactly, it will go over well. And as the guitar player mentioned above stated, find what works (licks, I suppose), particularly at the beginning stages, you can play the pleasant accidents that sounded good to you when you were trying to learn his break. 

TL:DR - listen closely, listen again, listen to other instruments, think about it when not playing it, imitate using bits and pieces learned or discovered. 

I didn't mention just playing over the cord changes but mostly because that requires more than just you and the fiddle. There's advice about that, usually regarding Strum Machine or some such. Give a search. 

Play it like you mean it.

Brian Wood - Posted - 03/26/2025:  14:37:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

It still boils down to processing at speed, being able to both play at whatever tempo while also "thinking" at that tempo.

---

I agree that it boils down to processing speed. Everybody has different abilities both mentally and physical processing for playing as fast as you think. I play comfortably at the tempo I walk at, 80 or 85 BPM. But I think faster than that. When I walk I often have a tune in my head and the tune at that tempo is being reinforced. It's occurred to me to walk faster, or maybe walk slower and do the tune in double time.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/26/2025:  14:42:03

Addendum.

I did not learn theory until well into my musical journey (decades) when I got curious about playing jazz. A good ear will navigate most folk, blues, rock, country chord changes without needing to know anything about theory.

A basic knowledge of the notes, CDEFGABC... and how the sharps/flats work can go a long way. The main reason to learn any of it is so you can communicate with you fellow musicians as needed.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/26/2025:  14:49:46

I totally get that there's a tempo threshold of some sort for everyone. I really fall apart at stupidly fast "Wheel Hoss" or "Rawhide" speed. Ridiculous lol. At a certain speed I lose the ability to be musical and also tend to not truly improvise. Bluegrass is really the only genre I play that gets there, but I do like to listen to some smoking Oscar Peterson Trio in my off time. 

I always have a tune going when I walk, unless there's another person there. 

buckhenry - Posted - 03/26/2025:  16:01:44

 .....leaving out some notes.....

Another aspect to consider......

Reduce the number of notes of the tune leaving only the main harmonic notes, usually on the first beat of the bar, notes on the 3rd beat could also be included.

Arrange your motifs to fit in-between these notes, and so that they aim for these notes. 

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/27/2025:  06:05:22

I don't disagree with what's been said about bluegrass,jazz... or styles that work out of chord progressions.But I do think  "fiddle tunes" is a little differnet  subject...



The fiddlers I like/hung around were all highly improvisational in bowing and melody while retaining the character of the tune. These are the fiddlers that we respected the most. The jams I grew up with... if you got too notey or wild someone might let you know.  And also when the city "music school" fiddlers showed up at a jam, they were often viewed as a little "canned"  I've posted about it countless times... the predictability of music school fiddlers vs the tradition I came out of. Or how bluegrass players will often abandon the tune or simplify it or drown it in shuffles...



It takes time and imagination. Elmer Rich was particularly good at it playing fiddle tunes in a creative and improvisational way while retaining teh character and structure of the tune. A lot of examples here...

youtu.be/CnuN-XKjjj0

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 03/27/2025 06:12:52

Erockin - Posted - 03/27/2025:  06:56:12

Thanks all for your input! Lots of good stuff right here!
When I watch some of the videos of the "real good old time jams" the fiddlers aren't stretching out...maybe small variations but not like in bluegrass. I was taught in bluegrass to play the melody the first time and then stretch out on the second time through.

For instance, Red Wing. I pieced it all together now finally. It's close. I know I shouldn't vere off the path just yet until it's down solid. Leading up to this, it sounded like improv as I learned it...so why would I want to change it once I get it? Hahah. I know the answer. It's just a fascinating process for me musically. I can improv better than playing tunes...lol That's the frustrating part.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 03/27/2025:  11:05:28

I like bluegrass fiddling a lot, too. Some of the stuff they do can stand alone .. and some of it requires the backing band to make sense...

wrench13 - Posted - 03/27/2025:  15:51:34

WHen I want to jump out of the bluegrass fiddle lane for breaks, I'll borrow horn stuff from swing bands, like CHerry Popping Daddies. Cool ideas and really left field stuff.

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/28/2025:  14:00:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erockin

it sounded like improv as I learned it...so why would I want to change it once I get it?

Why indeed? Lol The tunes stand alone and don't need improv-ment 

I can improv better than playing tunes...lol That's the frustrating part.

---

 The tune gives you something to say, so to speak. A lot of breaks/improvs seem to be licks/noodling because without the tune/song structure, that's pretty much what it is, playing without saying a lot.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 03/28/2025 14:00:37