RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 01/25/2025:  22:07:14

I'm trying to get a little smarter about understanding what is are good string heights at the nut. I have two instruments that are a little hard to play. In the past I've paid more attention to the bridge, but I'm realizing that nut height is an issue for these instruments.

I understand that fingerboard relief is a huge factor in playability.

I bought a set of feeler gauges to measure the height at the G and E strings on my instruments. I wasn't trying to be super accurate.

My two favorite fiddles were set up by the same luthier. The heights are ridiculously low, I think, but that's what I measured. They don't buzz, so clearly there is a significant relief.

Fiddle #1 "Maggini" pattern that came with heavy tension strings: G string 0.20 mm / 0.008", E string 0.04 mm / 0.016"
Fiddle #2, vintage instrument that I keep cross-tuned: G string 0.20 mm / 0.008", E string about 0.125 mm / 0.005"

Even if those numbers aren't perfectly accurate, they are quite low.

Fiddle #3 was set up by an experience local luthier. G string is 0.40 mm / 0.16"; E string is 0.18 mm / 0.0071".

Those are all normal violins with good playability. The remaining three are electric.

Fiddle #4 is my most playable electric: G string is 0.35 mm / 0.014"; E string is 0.25 mm / 0.010".

Fiddles #5 and #6 are the two problem children.

Fiddle #5 has G string 0.60 mm / 0.024", E string 0.5 mm / 0.0020". The nut was recently replaced on that one when I had the bridge recut. The luthier asked me if it was okay. At the time I thought it was okay, but now I realize it is too high.

Fiddle #6 is brand new and has G string 0.80 mm / 0.032", E string 0.63 mm / 0.025".

I'm planning on taking (electric) fiddles #5 and #6 to my normal luthier, who set up fiddle #3. I just plan to say something like "I think the nut action is too dang high". Hopefully he'll agree and just fix it. He loves to talk about dimensions, so I expect he'll quantify his preferences.

I'm playing quite a few F and B-flat tunes these days, and I really notice it trying to note a B-flat on the A string.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/26/2025:  05:50:50

For heights at the nut, I tend to use .4 mm as my standard for the G, and just a little less for the E. These heights work for most players, but some like them higher and some like them lower. When I was learning to do setup, I was taught to use a business card as a feeler gauge. At this point I just use my eye to measure.

Scoop in the fingerboard will make a more noticeable difference to playability in the middle of its length, but height at the nut has a big impact on how the violin feels in first position, and it can be the difference between a violin that’s easy to play and one that’s difficult. Far too often the nut is poorly made and the string grooves are not the appropriate shape. These things cause lots of tonal issues.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 01/26/2025:  07:35:11

Thanks for your expert opinion, Rich!

Your 0.4 mm G string height matches the height that my luthier set up instrument #3. So that's a good reference for discussion when I meet with him in the next several weeks.

Ernie

wrench13 - Posted - 01/26/2025:  08:42:35

FWIW, RIch, thats what my luthier uses, a business card. He just made me a new nut a few months ago. Took the fiddle to him for a once over for the winter months, and he was like "That's not right!" and made a new one in about an hour. Plays even better than it did.

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/26/2025:  12:46:36

I tend to use my eye setting the strings at the nut. It's not like a fretted instrument where strings have to clear fret height. I find lower is most comfortable.

DougD - Posted - 01/26/2025:  14:33:46

Ernie, your numbers are off - How can .04mm be .016" and .125mm be .005"?
That all seems like a waste of time anyway. I'm not a luthier, but like Rich I was taught to just use a business card if I needed a reference. Its true that string height at the nut makes a big difference in first position. I'd just take an instrument with the action I liked to the luthier and ask him to set the others up the same way.
If you're curious about the amount and location of fingerboard relief, you can easiy see it with a straightedge, and probably measure it with your feeler gauges

Edited by - DougD on 01/26/2025 14:34:23

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 01/26/2025:  20:44:20

Doug,

Some of my numbers could well be off. I remeasured the E string on Fiddle #1. The thinnest gauge I have is 0.05 mm / 0.002". That's too thick to fit under the E-string! So I just estimated it to be 0.04 mm and then converted the units. But I missed a zero, so that one should be (approximately) 0.04 mm / 0.0016".

I had forgotten the business card rule reference. It looks like the common business card thickness is 0.014" / 0.36 mm.

I may take an instrument in as a reference. Even though fiddles #1 and #2 are my favorites, I'm not going to ask for an action that low. I would take in #3 or #4, which have 0.40 mm and 0.35 mm G string heights, which is close to the business card thickness.

buckhenry - Posted - 01/27/2025:  15:30:20

I used a "bank" card which I believe is slightly thicker than a business card.

RinconMtnErnie - Posted - 02/16/2025:  15:49:31

I took the two electric instruments that had issues to my primary luthier. One is an old Yamaha YEV-104 and the other is a new YEV-104 Pro. So it made sense to set them up identically.

He worked on the nuts and bridges, tweaking a number of things. He sanded or scraped the fingerboard of the old instrument near the nut.

The old instrument had recently had the nut replaced by another luthier, who had the G string at 0.6 mm and the E string at 0.5 mm. That luthier is a Mariachi musician.

My primary luthier is a Bluegrass and dance fiddler. I was kind of surprised that he said he didn't want to lower the strings any more. Partly I'm surprised because when he replaced the fingerboard on fiddle #3, he put the G string at 0.4 mm. In any case, the G string on the YEV-104 is around 0.55 mm and the E string is around 0.5 mm. Maybe a little high for me, but it works and with whatever other stuff he did the instrument is more playable.

The G string on the YEV-104 is around 0.55 mm. The E string is around 0.45 mm.

My luthier said he didn't like to go much lower because then you "lose intonation feedback" or something like that. I guess he means that the feel of how hard he has to press helps with knowing if he is in the right place. He likes to play fifths with a single finger, such as an AE fifth on the lower two strings. So he is careful with heights of adjacent strings to make sure that is possible.

Right now both instruments have synthetic Zyex strings on them. The luthier who replaced the nut on my old YEV-104 said he likes to go a little higher for synthetics.

Just focusing on the G string heights, I now have instruments ranging from 0.2 mm to 0.55 mm.

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/16/2025:  16:00:26

It's interesting to me that string height at the nut is even an issue. Too high - bad, obviously. But the too low issue should be almost non-existent. In theory the nut height could be zero. The only reason for any height is for tactile reasons, a positive feeling of where your finger is landing in 1st position. I set a minimal height by eye and feel when setting up a violin.

DougD - Posted - 02/16/2025:  16:26:10

Yes. I worked briefly in the final assembly area of a well known guitar manuacturer. My job was to install and dress the 12th fret, install tuning machines, make nut and saddle, and string it up and make sure everything was OK. String height at the nut on a fretted instrument needs to be precise - too high and its hard to play but it needs to clear the first fret or the open string will buzz and rattle.
I don't see that much problem on a violin, just low enogh to be comfortable and high enough for some tactile response. That's why you can get away with such a wide range.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 02/16/2025:  19:09:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

It's interesting to me that string height at the nut is even an issue. Too high - bad, obviously. But the too low issue should be almost non-existent. In theory the nut height could be zero. The only reason for any height is for tactile reasons, a positive feeling of where your finger is landing in 1st position. I set a minimal height by eye and feel when setting up a violin.

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It isn't just a tactile thing. The nut needs to be high enough that it doesn't make the string buzz when it's being played. A proper height at the nut reduces fingerboard wear somewhat compared to a low one. 

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/17/2025:  10:43:16

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

It's interesting to me that string height at the nut is even an issue. Too high - bad, obviously. But the too low issue should be almost non-existent. In theory the nut height could be zero. The only reason for any height is for tactile reasons, a positive feeling of where your finger is landing in 1st position. I set a minimal height by eye and feel when setting up a violin.

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It isn't just a tactile thing. The nut needs to be high enough that it doesn't make the string buzz when it's being played. A proper height at the nut reduces fingerboard wear somewhat compared to a low one. 

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You may be right about that. I was theorizing that I could use a finger stopping a string as an example. At the point of the finger there is zero clearance, so I thought extending that idea supported what I said. But I don't think there should be no clearance at the nut, just very little.

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/17/2025:  12:42:27

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulA proper height at the nut reduces fingerboard wear somewhat compared to a low one. 

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Thinking about that one. Why would that be?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 02/17/2025:  18:09:53

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulA proper height at the nut reduces fingerboard wear somewhat compared to a low one. 

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Thinking about that one. Why would that be?

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The lower the strings at the nut, the more likely that  the fingerboard will be worn down in first position by the strings as they make grooves.

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/18/2025:  08:35:51

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulA proper height at the nut reduces fingerboard wear somewhat compared to a low one. 

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Thinking about that one. Why would that be?

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The lower the strings at the nut, the more likely that  the fingerboard will be worn down in first position by the strings as they make grooves.

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If you say so. Still can't see why that would be. I can see how a higher nut would cause both more finger pressure to stop a note, and a steeper angel of where the string lands, concentrating that pressure in a smaller point on the fingerboard to create more wearing, not less. Either way the results would be slight and probably not worth considering as part of your setup.

wilford - Posted - 02/20/2025:  03:12:36

I set the g at .4mm and start out with the e the same and play a few tunes in the key of f and if I encounter problems I usually lower the e string ever so slightly