Old Scratch - Posted - 11/11/2022:  12:24:33

It's been a few minutes since anyone argued about this topic, so .... Came across a relevant video:  youtube.com/watch?v=omK8JtK7Q64

DougD - Posted - 11/11/2022:  12:41:36

Actually its been a few hours since that video was mentioned here: fiddlehangout.com/topic/57304

Old Scratch - Posted - 11/11/2022:  13:35:05

Well, I'll be hornswaggled! For some reason, that topic hadn't come up on my list of 'Active Topics' ... this is downright embarrassking ... !

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/12/2022:  12:18:03

Still interesting though....

i like to try to keep the notes of a pentatonic scale (or an inversion of that pentatonic scale), in tune with one another.

Then (like he says in the vid), treat any other notes i need for a phrase or tune that are "outside"  the pent scale, as their nearest pentatonic neighbour, but flat if i am descending, or sharp if i am ascending. ..Or if i want to stay truly pentatonic, i use a harmony note within the pent scale instead of the "outside" note.

Sort of like the note outside the pent scale "IS" it's nearest neighbour in the pent scale, but altered. Then the pentatonic notes and double stops all work in tune. And any notes outside of the pentatonic scale are compared to them for their qualities.

Fiddler65 - Posted - 12/31/2023:  05:03:53

I missed the original discussion but just went back and skimmed through it. Other than playing fiddle by ear, I don't have any musical background. But, my 43 year-old son is a gifted classical violin player possessed of perfect pitch, who did study music theory. If I were constrained by the "rules of classical playing" I would never pick up my fiddle again. For me, music, as with art, is an "I know what I like when I hear (or see) it", and it matters not to me whether or not it conforms to "accepted standards". And that's exactly my approach to fiddle playing...I play in a manner that "sounds good" without ever thinking about the underpinning theory. I just play what I "hear" in my head.

NCnotes - Posted - 01/13/2024:  13:21:55

I used to play everything in tune, but after listening to a lot of trad fiddle playing I sometimes use the “sweet C” or F deliberately because I like the way it sounds…

(“Sweet” c is some trad players’ name for the C which is neither natural or sharp…the C in the crack between the white and black key…I thought that was interesting, so I call it that too!)

I don’t think there is a right or wrong here…players can choose how they want to sound…

although when playing in a group it sounds better to be on same pitch as others… I have found that my intonation “drifts” to match the group…

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/13/2024:  13:59:19

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

(“Sweet” c is some trad players’ name for the C which is neither natural or sharp…the C in the crack between the white and black key…I thought that was interesting, so I call it that too!)

 

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I hesitate to get involved in this topic, but I am curious about what key you are playing in to use the "sweet C",

farmerjones - Posted - 01/13/2024:  14:28:52

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

although when playing in a group it sounds better to be on same pitch as others… I have found that my intonation “drifts” to match the group…

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That's the Fiddlers magic power! She says she's singing F# but we know better. The trick is to not roll your eyes.

NCnotes - Posted - 01/13/2024:  14:57:10

Whooey, people drift a LOT…especially when playing outside on a humid day…. I gave up tuning to the tuner… A=440 is a myth! :-D



Hmm the first time I heard “sweet C” is in the playing of Paddy Canny. I liked the way it sounded, and in general he’s not in tune with a tuner but his playing is lovely… I am not so aware of keys, but I use sweet C in “pipe on the hob” and “eel in the sink” and some other Irish tunes where it just seems to sound right…



when I am in the group, I go back to a C sharp or C natural…because some instruments can’t play “inbetween” notes, and guitar players like to have a definitive key to play in!  (And if the piper plays c-natural, well that's what we are using, folks....because nobody can compete with that volume! Haha)

Edited by - NCnotes on 01/13/2024 15:01:11

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/13/2024:  15:23:57

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

Whooey, people drift a LOT…especially when playing outside on a humid day…. I gave up tuning to the tuner… A=440 is a myth! :-D



Hmm the first time I heard “sweet C” is in the playing of Paddy Canny. I liked the way it sounded, and in general he’s not in tune with a tuner but his playing is lovely… I am not so aware of keys, but I use sweet C in “pipe on the hob” and “eel in the sink” and some other Irish tunes where it just seems to sound right…



when I am in the group, I go back to a C sharp or C natural…because some instruments can’t play “inbetween” notes, and guitar players like to have a definitive key to play in!  (And if the piper plays c-natural, well that's what we are using, folks....because nobody can compete with that volume! Haha)

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You don't know what key you're in? Because a sweet (or, perhaps "sour" note) is relative to the other notes in a given key. It's kind of meaningless for me to guess. I will youtube Pipe On The Hob and see what I find.

... I found a version in Am and a version in Dm. Both keys have a C natural in them. Two versions of Paddy Canny are in Am and Gm...

Edited by - Brian Wood on 01/13/2024 15:33:12

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/13/2024:  15:43:08

I see now that Paddy Canny is a player that I'm not familiar with, not a tune. Oops. I'm guessing the key you are playing the "sweetened" C in is Am. That note works in blues as well.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/13/2024:  20:13:09

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

(“Sweet” c is some trad players’ name for the C which is neither natural or sharp…the C in the crack between the white and black key…I thought that was interesting, so I call it that too!)

 

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I hesitate to get involved in this topic, but I am curious about what key you are playing in to use the "sweet C",

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What NC notes might be referring is version of Pipe On the Hob, from East Clare region. IIRC Paddy Canny (or some Tulla Ceili band) recording is D tonic; more D mixolydian, or would be the best representation term.

A lot of mixolydian tunes/styles, with it's minor seventh note (C in key of D); often play a sharper than ET; but typically closer to or more representative of minor seventh. Once out of ET, there is more than one choice that can fit; from more of natural Just Intonation (about +18 cents to ET), to more neutral seventh (about +35 cents or perhaps +47 cents). Should mention the can often play two different seventh notes concepts, besides the previous minor seventh; also might use a slight sharp major seventh (C#) as more role of a leading tone. That's what I recall from that Pipe in the Hob. 

The sweet C would also fit in A Dorian or Aeolian, again outside of ET, offers a few choices; similar as the more natural minor third (+16 cents sharper than ET); to then there are neutral thirds; to then the natural major third which is about 14 cents flatter than ET (this latter, some folks hearing as flat from ET and assume it's more like minor, when it is actually better "in tune" for major). There is also a sweet(?) C in the key of G (20 cents), and other keys that might apply.

Which brings up comment

I used to play everything in tune, but after listening to a lot of trad fiddle playing I sometimes use the “sweet C” or F deliberately because I like the way it sounds…

But that presumes  tuning based on ET as only thing that constitutes "in tune" thus should sound better, or correct. Which is not really the case. Simply uses a different tuning system, often more harmonically in tune with itself. 

Similarly, terminologly kind of limited to relating to 12 fixed pitches, names, and 7 in a scale/mode name. But other cultures might use more than one of the same rough family of note/interval; that will slight shift based on context.

NCnotes - Posted - 01/13/2024:  20:42:48

Phew thanks for explaining that above!

The Irish keys (mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, etc, still baffle me).



I first discovered the "sweet C" (and "personal intonation" in general) when I was trying to play along with this video of Paddy Canny and Frankie Gavin...it wasn't quite a C sharp or a C. natural they were playing...and I found this in other fiddle playing as well...



youtu.be/KBONRwNY77c?si=IEhYOiMlTPBlS3nm





 

DougD - Posted - 01/14/2024:  01:48:07

Sometimes collectors, Samuel Bayard for example, when notating tunes from "traditional" sources use an up or down arrow to indicate a note a little higher or lower tha usual. Version B of "Green Fields of America" in "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife" includes this "sweet C" a couple times in the key of G.
His Version C of "College Hornpipe" in G uses the down arrow a few times to indicate a lowered F#, which would suggest a Mixolydian feel, with its characteristic minor seventh.

Edited by - DougD on 01/14/2024 01:57:58

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/14/2024:  16:17:50

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Sometimes collectors, Samuel Bayard for example, when notating tunes from "traditional" sources use an up or down arrow to indicate a note a little higher or lower tha usual. Version B of "Green Fields of America" in "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife" includes this "sweet C" a couple times in the key of G.

His Version C of "College Hornpipe" in G uses the down arrow a few times to indicate a lowered F#, which would suggest a Mixolydian feel, with its characteristic minor seventh.

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I know some academic scholars and others take great pains to emulate recordings and notate transcriptions as you describe. I am going to come out of the closet and say I find notes like that to be off. Those aren't the qualities I look for. I accept it in many players because intonation is hard, but don't think it's something intentional to emulate. Even if I am wrong and it is intentional it doesn't sit with me. I'm saying it out loud. I'm an apostate, a sinner, maybe. I hear equal tempered scales as most pleasing overall. I tune my fiddle with an electronic tuner. I appreciate micro-tones that slide to or from from a note for effect, but not when those notes are intended to be the correct interval in the scale. (And I'm not perfect so don't copy me either).

Got that off my chest!

TuneWeaver - Posted - 01/14/2024:  16:53:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Well, I'll be hornswaggled! For some reason, that topic hadn't come up on my list of 'Active Topics' ... this is downright embarrassking ... !

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No problem.  I enjoyed the video and found it fascinating..and I even learned some 'stuff'...

Old Scratch - Posted - 01/14/2024:  16:59:29

Btw: I assume that this discussion re-appeared due to some spam post that has since been removed .....

Old Scratch - Posted - 01/14/2024:  17:05:22

Brian Wood "I find notes like that to be off". As I've had occasion to mention here before, I've seen and participated in any number of arguments about this point, and I have yet to see anyone's mind changed on the subject. So, if someone else wants to jump in, give me a heads-up so I can get some popcorn ready ... !

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/14/2024:  20:10:40

Yeah, waiting…

NCnotes - Posted - 01/14/2024:  21:19:30

Well as somebody who grew up playing classical, I am trained to hear/play right on pitch…
yet I am still charmed by the unique intonations which are like an artistic expression of the fiddler and I enjoy listening to what I consider the “old” puredrop rural sound.

As for tempered vs just tuning, am happiest when I tune to A=440 and do the other strings by ear…
(in the age before widespread electronic tuners, all we used was a tuning fork to get the A, after all! )
I find that the pitch of D,G,E will not match up perfectly with my electronic tuner, yet they sound pure/ringing to me, I prefer that over a mathematical match…

But, no popcorn here!
I am “live and let live”, “to each their own”! :-)
If we can play decently in tune with eachother, that’s great…

ChickenMan - Posted - 01/20/2024:  14:05:01

For a better understanding of this ET vs JT discussion let me again recommend the book How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care) a very easy read packed with info and a deal at $14.50 for paperwork at Amazon. It opens with the author telling of an observed conversation with the Cleveland symphony conductor about Beethoven's 9th and how it starts with about 2 minutes of a D minor chord and how after that it shifts into  a Bb minor chord. The conductor mused that the orchestra could not get the Bb chord to sound right, saying, "I know what a major third is, and all of the players are consummate professionals, but we tried over and over again and I was never satisfied." This was the impetus of the book.

For one thing, there are/have existed many tempered scales before and during the widespread adoption of ET.  The reason for ET lies in the development of compositions that change keys in some way. The main tuning culprit is the third degree of the scale, (such as C#/Db) which can be a truly different note if it is to be in harmonic alignment, depending on which mode is being played. 

That's all I can say. Read the book, see if it doesn't make you a believer. Frets and keyboards are where ET "works" but voice, strings, brass and woodwinds are able to adjust and play those "sweetened" notes and be in harmony with one another in a way that is so satisfying that you will know it when you hear it, especially if compared side by side to unadjusted notes.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 01/20/2024 14:11:38

Peghead - Posted - 02/25/2024:  10:31:44

I noticed that a few old timers use a neutral 3rd (midway between the major and minor) Then again it could be arthritis.

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/25/2024:  13:55:36

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenManThat's all I can say. Read the book, see if it doesn't make you a believer. Frets and keyboards are where ET "works" but voice, strings, brass and woodwinds are able to adjust and play those "sweetened" notes and be in harmony with one another in a way that is so satisfying that you will know it when you hear it, especially if compared side by side to unadjusted notes.

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That makes the point well. The reason you must tune to ET for fretted and keyboard instruments are so they can play as well as they can with melodic and key shifts. For fiddle I think I only differ with JI purists by choosing to tune my open strings ET so I can play well with, say, the mandolins, and all other equal tuned instruments. Just Intonation works best playing with other non-tempered instruments.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/26/2024:  17:44:44

Brian Wood said:
"That makes the point well. The reason you must tune to ET for fretted and keyboard instruments are so they can play as well as they can with melodic and key shifts. For fiddle I think I only differ with JI purists by choosing to tune my open strings ET so I can play well with, say, the mandolins, and all other equal tuned instruments. Just Intonation works best playing with other non-tempered instruments."
And you likely play your notes as sweet as can be in that setting, which can still be slightly sweeter than the frets are playing.

Ever notice how a guitar G chord really relies on that B string being either in tune with open G chord, or a G5 type chord where the D on the B string is added, but not both? Maybe not because it can be subtle, but it's the reason for a compensated nut.

Old Scratch - Posted - 02/27/2024:  08:32:49

Hmmm, a "compensated nut" - that's what I've felt like on some gigs. (St. Patrick's Day is coming up, btw!). Nothing "subtle" about it ... !

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/27/2024:  09:20:01

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

And you likely play your notes as sweet as can be in that setting, which can still be slightly sweeter than the frets are playing.

Yes!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/27/2024:  12:32:15

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

Brian Wood said:

"That makes the point well. The reason you must tune to ET for fretted and keyboard instruments are so they can play as well as they can with melodic and key shifts. For fiddle I think I only differ with JI purists by choosing to tune my open strings ET so I can play well with, say, the mandolins, and all other equal tuned instruments. Just Intonation works best playing with other non-tempered instruments."

And you likely play your notes as sweet as can be in that setting, which can still be slightly sweeter than the frets are playing.



Ever notice how a guitar G chord really relies on that B string being either in tune with open G chord, or a G5 type chord where the D on the B string is added, but not both? Maybe not because it can be subtle, but it's the reason for a compensated nut.

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If I'm feeling ornery and a bit crazed I'll re-tune my guitar's B string depending on what key the fiddles are playing in. Otherwise I'll just merrily jangle along. It also depends on the guitar I happen to bring to the jam. My sweet, short-scaled midrange-centric L-00 Gibson plays scales and chords more accurately than my longer-scaled Martins. The Martins, by contrast, sound bigger, richer and more authoritative.

boxbow - Posted - 02/27/2024:  13:41:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Hmmm, a "compensated nut" - that's what I've felt like on some gigs. (St. Patrick's Day is coming up, btw!). Nothing "subtle" about it ... !

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Is that the name of your band?  The Compensated Nuts.

Old Scratch - Posted - 02/27/2024:  13:50:50

boxbow Nope - too many syllables ... for later in the evening ... !

DougD - Posted - 02/27/2024:  14:25:18

Billy - I don't think the B and D on the B string is the reason some guitars have compensated saddles., but that's another discussion.
The problem is due to the nature of 12T equal temperament, and especially that the difference from just intonation is not the same for all intervals. The fifths and fourths are pretty close, but thirds, sixths, seconds, and sevenths are much farther off. This is why Brian can tune his open strings to equal temperament, and still think he sounds OK. Perfect fifths are less than 2 cents wider than their ET counterparts, and perfect fourths are the same amount narrow. If you just have a basic tuner, and want to approximate perfect fifths, tune your A string to 440 Hz. Then tune your D string about 2 cents flat to what the tuner suggests, and your G string the same amount again (c. 4 cents). Then tune your E string about 2 cents sharp. This is less than 6 cents from the lowest to highest strings - not a very big deal. The rest of the notes are up to you anyway. I don't think fiddlers like Art Wooten or Tommy Magness needed to tune to ET to play with mandolins, etc. Before electronic tuners, this would have been hard, unless you tuned each string to a piano. Much more common to get a note from somewhere, and tune the instrument till it sounds good.
Now back to the poor guitar B string. In Billy's example the tuning depends on how the notes are used in the chord. If you tune both the G and B strings to ET with a tuner, the B string will be very sharp - about 13 cents. That may be fine for the third, but when you fret the D it will be sharp by the same amount. As the fifth of the open G string, it should be a couple cents flat compared to perfect, even for equal temperament. You could tune the B string flatter than the tuner suggests, but it might not sound "right" to what you're used to.
Groundhogpeggy used to say that tuning a guitar involved more subtle listening than just using a tuner. That was one thing I always agreed with her about.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/27/2024:  18:18:07

Doug said:
"Now back to the poor guitar B string. In Billy's example the tuning depends on how the notes are used in the chord. If you tune both the G and B strings to ET with a tuner, the B string will be very sharp - about 13 cents. That may be fine for the third, but when you fret the D it will be sharp by the same amount. As the fifth of the open G string, it should be a couple cents flat compared to perfect, even for equal temperament. You could tune the B string flatter than the tuner suggests, but it might not sound "right" to what you're used to.
Groundhogpeggy used to say that tuning a guitar involved more subtle listening than just using a tuner. That was one thing I always agreed with her about."

This is what I was driving at. Seems like every guitar player with a good ear understands the B is a problem child.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/27/2024:  19:02:14

Given my choice, I'll keep my acoustic guitar's B string a little south of "true." It just sounds better the majority of the time. Even when I'm playing an open, first position G chord.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/28/2024:  15:06:09

Billy - I don't think the B and D on the B string is the reason some guitars have compensated saddles., but that's another discussion.

Yep; the reason of compensated bridge is not about temperament; rather that deals with some of the material physics, different strings, diameter, mass, wrapping, height, tension, end stiffness, neck relief, fret height, nut. To get it to achieve is goal of  the given designed layout, which is still 12TET; all notes come as close as possible to that.

Again the goal should be to making as close to a solid 12TET, which if achieved will (like piano) play well in any key/chord. Again, not about JI thirds/sixths (like the open b string); problems rather comes up just getting the ET fifths/octaves/unisons dialed; esp in first 3-4 frets. For example, second string to have the 3rd fret be ET fifth of G; but also open string be ET fifth of E. Compounded by need to have other strings, with different physical properties, at other frets; to also make those ET fifths in other chords/keys along the same fret locations. While could make distance 3rd fret dead on (300 cent) for second string to do that; it will be slightly different than, for example, the 3rd fret of the wrapped sixth string (similar dealing with first and second fret).

Groundhogpeggy used to say that tuning a guitar involved more subtle listening than just using a tuner. That was one thing I always agreed with her about.

It's perhaps not an issue of using a tuner vs ear; but in how use the tuner/ear; for example, just open strings and making assumptions about frets; not taking into account the above issues of fretted notes being slightly off. Added to above, is how individual instrument is setup, and might have to deal with issues, nut, relief, action, to random high frets and fret wear. In tuning, as above, many instruments/set up struggle; to even get close to 12TET; so might have to make bit of compromise, tweaks to find some balance of give and take. Of course might opt to sweeten to limited key/chord shapes... to make preferred key of G or C, versus say E or A. For example if playing in key of G, I would focus on all the G, C and D notes (ear or tuner); that means tuning the B string, to what the first and third frets sound (rather than open b). OTOH, if playing in key of E would opt for focus on different notes/frets of E/A/B (might mean open G string is slightly off).

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 02/28/2024 15:12:15

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/20/2024:  13:48:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

Well, I'll be hornswaggled! For some reason, that topic hadn't come up on my list of 'Active Topics' ... this is downright embarrassking ... !

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Consider this:.. If a topic is a repeat from 'way back', then it will easily be seen as new to many members who didn't notice it back then.  If it is a repeat of a recent topic...still many members will still be seeing it for the first time.. The only thing worse than repeating a topic is to never start one yourself.... Go for it!  

Old Scratch - Posted - 12/20/2024:  13:56:35

In this case, if I remember correctly, someone had just started a thread on the same topic, and maybe with a link to the same vid, on the same day, and I had somehow missed it .... Me a coupla, and all that ......

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/20/2024:  16:30:37

Could have been a spammer who revived it but was blocked before you saw their post. I'm pretty sure that has happened to me.

DougD - Posted - 12/20/2024:  16:52:26

No spammer involved. You can see what happened at the beginning of this thread. Old Scratch started this topic just a few hours after another one, now archived. Carlb and I pointed it out, almost simultaneously.
I notice that "Chickenman" "liked" both our posts.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/20/2024:  18:23:08

I've always tuned my guitar according to what chords I'd be playing...strictly by ear...any other way and it sounds off pitch to me. Drove the Bluegrass band crazy...lol...they're big into little battery operated things that fit on top of your tuning head. They even bought me one one time...which was nice, but sorry, tuning to that makes me crazy because the guitar at least, does not sound good to me when it's done mathematically like that. That tuner was missing one night when the little amateur band and I were at a big BG jam...I'm assuming it was stolen...and I was very happy about that...lol.