Charles in SC - Posted - 04/07/2013:  19:21:45

Hello, this is my first post here. I have picked up my fiddle again after a three year stretch of banjo playing. My question is this, When playing bluegrass style music do fiddle players think 

in terms of what chords to work in or is the fiddle just played by sound that you wish to make? I hope this question makes since. When I play banjo in a jam I mostly work within the chords 

that make up the tune knowing that the notes I need are generally within them.

martynspeck - Posted - 04/07/2013:  19:54:36

Fiddle players are notorious for not knowing what key a tune is in or what chords are being played.

Jam Leader: Marty, call a tune.

Me: Turkey in the Straw

Leader: In what key

Me: Ummmm. ... Runs through the last notes of the tune or thinks about what fingers I use on the a and e strings ... G

If you're playing backup or improvising you're more likely to know the chords.

boxbow - Posted - 04/08/2013:  05:59:07

Methinks I should figure out the answer to that question.  Not that I haven't tried, but I need to try more.  These days I spend half my time playing lead exclusively, which I hadn't expected at the outset.  Go figure.  I don't look so much for full chords as I do effective double stops.  It's sometimes helpful to look for arpeggios in the tune, but I can't do that on the fly quick enough.  Like Marty said, I'll run through the fingering real quick-like and name the key.  That's usually good enough if the tune is just a I-IV-V tune.  I hear the musical tension build and release with the chord changes, but I don't try very hard to track them.  I have my mitts full with the melody and harmony, not to mention intonation and rhythm.  And not sliding out of my chair.  And not drooling.  And not snagging the frog on a nearby potted plant, thereby launching a tray full of snacks across the room into something valuable and not yet scotch-guarded.

ajisai - Posted - 04/08/2013:  06:24:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles in SC

 

When playing bluegrass style music do fiddle players think in terms of what chords to work in or is the fiddle just played by sound that you wish to make?

I can't speak for anyone else and I don't play bluegrass so I can't advise you there, but the little bit that I know about chords is very helpful to me in playing old-time music.

There are chord-note patterns on the fingerboard and if you like thinking in that sort of way, it can be useful to figure them out. 

Third finger, first finger on the next string up, third finger (in my mind it's a long triangle shape) creates an arpeggio named from the 1st third finger you put down.

Low second, next open string up, low second (a horizontal line in my mind) also creates a 1-3-5 arpeggio.

Open string, high second, next open string up, low second (I think of it as the second finger jumping across a canyon to create something that needs to be resolved) creates a a 7th chord arpeggio named from the first open string.

And so on! Try inverting them.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time looking for patterns early on and I think it did two things for me -- 1) taught me what some of the finger patterns sound like which helps playing by ear; and 2) gave me some tools to use to narrow down note choices when I'm trying to figure out new tunes on the fly.

Like martynspeck said, though, I think there are plenty of good fiddlers who don't think along those lines. It's really whatever works for you. 

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  09:05:28

Charles, it's a case of either,or, or both. You can't go wrong by playing the notes in the key scale but you can create interest by playing notes from the scales of the other chords in the piece as those chords come up. Just make sure you are playing out of the scale of the chord being played or stay in the scale of the key the piece was written in.  Simple if you have time to work it all up, your ear will keep you straight.  It's a little rougher on the fly because you haven't heard what your going to play yet.  Not good at explanations but may be this will help.

Edited by - fiddleiphile on 04/08/2013 09:12:35

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/08/2013:  11:56:22

fiddlephile said "Either or both".

Yup!

If you want to do double stops, you need to be chord conscious.

If you want to play around in a pentatonic scale, you can do it more by feel, but the V chord and the II chord change tend to force you to shift scales to be more specific to the chord.

In the key of G, C is the IV change, D is the V chord, and A is the II chord.

The Roman numeral approach is useful, because as the banjo capos up, the chord names no longer apply, but if you know which is the IV change, the V change, and the II change, you can read that from the banjo pickers chord positions and apply it to your fiddling even though the chord names aren't right for what you're playing on fiddle.

Peghead - Posted - 04/08/2013:  12:22:32

An understanding of chords is helpful, it will give you the overall structure of the tonal shifts of the song/tune. As a melody instrument primarily, you can also approach the fiddle from scale/mode point of view, just like a jazz horn player. Then again, you can just learn tunes and play them from muscle memory and not think about any of it.

Edited by - Peghead on 04/08/2013 12:27:52

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  12:36:22

I know all you Old Time players don't want to hear it but having a little knowledge of music theory can sure save a lot of time gaining that "muscle memory".  You will also be able to tell someone else what you are doing when they are lost.

Edited by - fiddleiphile on 04/08/2013 12:41:08

ajisai - Posted - 04/08/2013:  12:41:21

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleiphile

 

I know all you Old Time players don't want to hear it but having a little knowledge of music theory can sure save a lot of time gaining that "muscle memory".

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Be careful. The fourth post in this thread is from someone who's deep into old-time music and she's a real proponent of learning basic music theory!

Edited by - ajisai on 04/08/2013 12:41:43

KCFiddles - Posted - 04/08/2013:  13:17:53

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleiphile

 

I know all you Old Time players don't want to hear it but having a little knowledge of music theory can sure save a lot of time gaining that "muscle memory".  You will also be able to tell someone else what you are doing when they are lost.

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Most of the top old-time fiddle players I know play excellent backup guitar and know enough theory to play swing progressions, chord substitutions, etc. (They've shamed me into practicing guitar again. )

You have to know what you are doing well enough to do it without thinking.  Just like walking, it gets real awkward if you have to think about it while you are doing it.

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  13:20:08

Explain it to the masses girl!!! They will take it better from you than me.

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  13:25:58

Michael, top OT players should be expected to know. I just happen to think even beginners should have a little basic understanding of how what they are trying to do works.  And why it works.  Relieve some of the mysteries.

Edited by - fiddleiphile on 04/08/2013 13:30:23

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  13:40:45

Guitar is a great instrument to work with but nothing beats a piano for help learning theory. the keyboard just stacks it all up right before your eyes. Makes it easy to understand.

ajisai - Posted - 04/08/2013:  13:41:55

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleiphile

 

Explain it to the masses girl!!! They will take it better from you than me.

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KCFiddles - Posted - 04/08/2013:  14:15:10

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleiphile

 

Michael, top OT players should be expected to know. I just happen to think even beginners should have a little basic understanding of how what they are trying to do works.  And why it works.  Relieve some of the mysteries.

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No argument there, and most of the fiddle teachers here teach structure as well as line.  It's real common for beginning fiddle players to already play guitar or mando, also.

I really don't like the sound of a piano, but agree there's nothing like it for putting everything right in front of your eyes.  Fiddle & mando come close, though, because of the way they  are tuned. I played guitar for a loooong time, mostly by rote. Didn't really start to "get" theory until I started improvising on fiddle, playing behind singers. Then it rather suddenly started to come clear.

wooliver - Posted - 04/08/2013:  14:46:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles in SC

 

Hello, this is my first post here. I have picked up my fiddle again after a three year stretch of banjo playing. My question is this, When playing bluegrass style music do fiddle players think in terms of what chords to work in or is the fiddle just played by sound that you wish to make? I hope this question makes since. When I play banjo in a jam I mostly work within the chords that make up the tune knowing that the notes I need are generally within them.

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OK, I'm talking Bluegrass. Guitar pickers say they're picking the melody out of the chord. But a fiddle is a pretty poor device for chords because your only getting part of a chord. What is not in the chord makes the melody unique. Otherwise every tune would just be the same chords rearranged.  I'd recommend getting the melody out of the scale rather than the chord. Then after you've got the melody, go back and find the chords/changes. If you're playing chords instead of the melody for a break, that's admission you don't know the melody. It is acceptable in the fact you're still making music but don't confuse one for the other.

Charles in SC - Posted - 04/08/2013:  18:00:02

Thanks for every ones input. I think what I asked was understood differently by some. I am still not sure I can clearify any. When I play at a jam and someone plays a tune that I am not familiar with it generally gets kicked off  where they play the melody for the verse then the verse is sung followed the chorus then someone plays a break. (This is what I call bluegrass style) Most of the time if the tune follows one of the more standard formats as to chord patterns I can play a break by playing within the chords because I know subconsously (sp) what each string sounds like while holding the chord with the left hand after the first chorus even if I have not heard the song before. I am talking about doing this at bluegrass banjo speed. It is not something you have time to think through, you just have to play the instrument well enough to just do it. It may not be the fanciest break but you can fancy it up later . I would like to develop this ability for the fiddle. I think the answer to my question was revealed in part by a couple of different posters. My previous fiddle playing was OT style and my teacher was an OT player. I think my post has been clear as mud.

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/08/2013:  19:54:41

Now I'm at a loss for words!

FiddleJammer - Posted - 04/09/2013:  03:51:30

If I know the key, I know where the scale falls and I know where some 2 finger chords are. So, if I need to chop some, knowing the chords helps. The melody is a combination of tone patterns, like words and phrases, that I can eventually intuit and combine into sentences until I know the whole paragraph.

Music theory can be different things to different people. There is an understanding of the logic, math, relative direction, texture, flavor, and patterns that does not require a book of mumbo jumbo. The theory can explain the tune 'after the fact', but there is also a very basic experience during the music that we often explain as a feeling. Difficult to put words to, but you know the music is doing something. The chord is changing, the melody is going up or down or repeating, the volume or speed can change or remain the same. And, with repetition, we can 'read' these patterns and eventually play the tune. Knowing how to describe staying on the one chord, or using a modal scale, or thinking of a pattern as an arpeggio helps to solidify and communicate what is felt in the music. Perhaps makes learning and remembering a tune a little easier. But, there are folks who can just experience the tune without the book learning as well.

And, so on.

Joel Glassman - Posted - 04/09/2013:  04:09:37

Learn to play mandolin.
Once you become comfortable with playing chords, you'll see all the
patterns and symmetry of the 5ths tuning. My playing took a huge leap
forward by doing this. The chord patterns become a road to follow,
melody notes coinciding with chord tones. When playing now, my
hands orient to the chord forms and fingers play 'approach notes'
to those forms [with the melody in mind]

fiddleiphile - Posted - 04/09/2013:  08:02:27

Fiddle Jammer, I was a teacher for several years. I never met a beginner who could "just experience the tune" But I will second the fact that a little knowledge of theory "perhaps makes learning and remembering a tune a little easier".

blgrssr - Posted - 04/09/2013:  13:29:43

Coming from a background in other instruments, I absolutely positively know the key and exactly what chord the song is on at any moment.  I think in terms of licks. When song goes to C , I have 4-5 C licks and vice versa. But that is because of my background.

I've seen many fiddlers give amazing solos to songs that just blew me away. They were very accomplished.  And then you ask what key and they have no idea.  Playing a little guitar inMHO would help anyone.

Edited by - blgrssr on 04/09/2013 13:31:17

FiddleJammer - Posted - 04/10/2013:  05:33:10

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleiphile

 

Fiddle Jammer, I was a teacher for several years. I never met a beginner who could "just experience the tune" But I will second the fact that a little knowledge of theory "perhaps makes learning and remembering a tune a little easier".

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Ya think? There's newbies who can 'guess' when a chord changes, when a melody goes higher or lower, when a tune sounds happy or sad, clap in time, and so on. These are basic experiences of theory, seems to me. Knowing more about the theory, though, helps people to talk with each other about the experience. It's a march, not a dance tune. It's modal or minor, that's why there's a sad feeling. It's crooked, that's why you so freakin' lost.  :-)   And, so on.