blgrssr - Posted - 02/13/2013:  07:41:25

Alright, Im not trying to get on my high horse, but.... as a person who has been going to blgrass jams for yrs, recently people here have speaking of negative experiences with going to a bluegrass jam. I feel obligated to offer a perspective on it , defend it,and why I think its the best way to go. the legitimate gripe posted is that they only play Flatt and Scruggs and havent been welcoming to fiddlers here. I dont think its their fault, its your fault, your inability to understand bluegrass.
firstly I've seen fiddlers show up and have negative experiences long before I ever picked up a fiddle, and I often shrugged my shoulders and thought "all those fiddlers are the same." so if you have had a bad experience, let me show you what you look like to them.
just so you know, when at a blgrass jam, this is the common sequence of events from the jam:
1) new person shows up with fiddle, the group is curious. why, because twenty yrs ago a real good bluegrass fiddler showed up and it was awesome. since the they have only heard poor amateurs squeeking away..
2)here is the conversation:
"what song do you want to do?"
"I would like to play an extremely obscure tune none of you have heard. its called the homey ewe in the mountaintop of aberdeens quest in the valley. it has multiple chord changes and you will all be expected to follow.
"what key is it in"
"I have no idea"
"do you know any other tunes?"
"why would I learn something you wouldknow?"
3)so the song is played, it maybe played well but its a big mess because noone can get the chords.
4)the fiddler finishes their solo and just quits. they dont give a dam
if anyone wants to try to improvise a solo. the fiddle solo is over and thats all that matters everyone else can go to hell and im done. the song is over.
5)this repeats 2 or 3 x
6)people lose their initial niceness to the fiddler ruining their prev fun music session
7)the fiddler goes home unhappy saying "boy they were rude at that jam" never goes back
I love blgrass, its all I play. but you have to act a certain way, you have to know how blgrass works to be successful at it. my 2 cents

Peghead - Posted - 02/13/2013:  08:38:26

LOL  - I love the tune title!  

blgrssr - Posted - 02/13/2013:  09:30:19

tx, I meant this as kind of comical.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  10:06:53

All of these jam horror stories; there is generally the other side's perspective that doesn't get told. Seen some of the nicest folks in the world get labeled as rude. Not limited to Bluegrass.



On number 3 - as well what happens, is they play what would be a perfectly easy to accompany tune but with such poor phrasing, accents, and timing; sometimes no essence of a melody, just a string of notes, that the others are kind of scratchin their head - as to where the beat, chord changes and what structure and meter is (is this supposed to be a waltz or a jig or what?).

 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/13/2013:  11:29:32

Yeah, I can see that happening quite easily.  Fiddle-tune-oriented fiddlers coming into a Bluegrass jam have a bit of a learning curve ahead of them.  They could be contest style Old Time, or Appalachian Old Time, they'd both have to do some changing.

I was pretty much that kind of fiddler, and I tried to get an Old Time jam going.... there really wasn't that much interest locally as far as I could tell.  So I jam wherever I can, which has included folk jams (lots of John Prine songs!) and a bluegrass jam.

And bluegrass players would come even to the folk jams.

Now, at the folk jams around here, the level of instrumental musicianship is normally pretty low... it's just about the song, and the guitar is accompanying the song.  A lot of times the singer doesn't even know how to play through the chords without singing along, so it's kind of hard for them to provide something for someone to take a break over!

So in the folk jams, I figured the Old Time melody approach was best- I'd just play the melody all the way through... softly during the singing, loudly if the singing stopped... it seemed to work fine....

but one day a Bluegrass player showed up, and he was kind of rude... like why wasn't I following break etiquette?

And I was like "I'm just an Old Time fiddler!"

And he shot back sarcastically "Yeah, I know!" 

Then he said something to the effect that "Accompaniment is what you have to play 90% of the time, so you need to get good at it!"

Well, I was tempted to get annoyed with him... hey, it's not like it was a bluegrass jam, so "How dare he lay that Bluegrass etiquette on me outside of a Bluegrass jam!"  But I was ALSO attending the Bluegrass jam, and I decided to take it as a wake-up call that I was going to have to learn bluegrass break etiquette, and even learn the chords to tunes, even fiddle tunes, so I could back up, and even learn to chop.

And I'm glad I did... and the rude guy eventually told me he liked my fiddling cause I played in tune, and wanted to jam privately!

Now, when I take a break on a fiddle tune, I still sound Old Time, but I follow break etiquette, although I'm prepared to jump in at a second's notice with the melody if the person taking a break is an Old Time player.  And I also know who the players are now that WANT breaks. 

Also, I've learned over the years which tunes in my repertoire are popular among bluegrass musicians, and I don't pull out any of my obscure Old Time Tunes (especially crooked ones!) which would definitely qualify as "jam busters".  The same tune that's a tired old "warhorse" among Old Time players is a really good jamming tune among Bluegrass players- precisely because everyone knows it.

Anyway, if someone is rude, they probably are being rude about some aspect of the etiquette that you aren't following. They probably don't know you from Adam, so DON'T take it personally, and the rudeness may be because your the umpteenth person that has done the same thing! "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".... in a bluegrass jam, do as the bluegrassers do, and if anybody is rude, you should ask at the nearest opportunity if there is some aspect of the etiquette that you need to adjust to better.  You may find that once you show a teachable attitude about the etiquette, the same person could be really friendly.  Yeah, it would be nice if people could let you know you did something wrong in a tactful, kind way, but hey, I've been on this old earth six decades, and those people are kind of rare! So it's best to just ignore the rudeness, and try and learn the lesson they are trying to pass on.

One BIG aspect just has to do with volume:  Fiddles can be LOUD, especially when playing two strings at once, and human voices, mandolins, and flatpicked guitars are often not very loud.  A loud fiddler can totally drown them out.  It's especially important to do whatever you have to do to play your softest during vocals, or during a flatpicker or mandolin player's break.  And this is doubly true when the total number of jammers is WAY bigger than you'd have in a typical bluegrass band.  If you've got 10 people in a bluegrass jam, and only one person is playing the lead or singing the verse, even the backup needs to be softer than if there are only 5 or 6 jammers. 

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/13/2013 11:32:23

Fiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  12:31:36

It's all about being sensitive to those with whom you are playing and the style of music being played. It helps to know the general "structure" of a session (solo breaks, vocals, etc.), the repertoire and the general expectations of the jam etiquette. 

I've been to serious bluegrass jams where the BGNs (bluegrass nazis) rule with an iron fist. By golly, if you didn't play it like Bill Monroe did or whomever, you were dead wrong and unwelcome and uninvited from subsequent sessions.  I've been to other bluegrass sessions that have been incredibly welcoming and played everything from BG standards, to old time to John Prine-esque folk. Each is fun in their own way, but I prefer the latter, more open session.

At BG or folk sessions, I usually stick with tunes that most people are familiar with or have very predictable chord structures. I would prefer that everyone have a good time and enjoy the unique camaraderie of creating music together.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  13:22:39

Sometimes two concepts are just diametrically opposed.

Sometimes there is a misperception. While "that's not how it goes"  might seem the folks at that jam are persnickity, want note for note exactly as on a record. It's possible, that's what their jam is about, that's detail is what's important, what they want to do, (which should not be a problem.)  But more often it's not that, it's just that overall what's being played doesn't quite fit, they are looking for certain details that give it the quality or style they are seeking, view as important to playing the music they are. For the most part they are just trying to guide the other into what they want it to sound like; and the more specific sound aspects is a big part of why that jam exists. From their perspective, it is a bit disrespectful if not rude for an outsider to want (if not insist) to greatly change their jam to be something else. And not wanting to, or refusing to listen and learn how to fit in really comes off as disrespectful, no?

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 02/13/2013 13:25:19

Fiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  15:26:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Sometimes two concepts are just diametrically opposed.

Sometimes there is a misperception. While "that's not how it goes"  might seem the folks at that jam are persnickity, want note for note exactly as on a record. It's possible, that's what their jam is about, that's detail is what's important, what they want to do, (which should not be a problem.)  But more often it's not that, it's just that overall what's being played doesn't quite fit, they are looking for certain details that give it the quality or style they are seeking, view as important to playing the music they are. For the most part they are just trying to guide the other into what they want it to sound like; and the more specific sound aspects is a big part of why that jam exists. From their perspective, it is a bit disrespectful if not rude for an outsider to want (if not insist) to greatly change their jam to be something else. And not wanting to, or refusing to listen and learn how to fit in really comes off as disrespectful, no?

---

 Yes, sometimes "open" jams are in reality closed band sessions where they are working out arrangements, etc. This is ok, but something to be sensitive to.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  15:43:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

 Yes, sometimes "open" jams are in reality closed band sessions where they are working out arrangements, etc. This is ok, but something to be sensitive to.

---

That usually a big misperception. Probably based on the idea of what an open jam is. Usually if it is an actual band practice they will state so. But they often really are open jam sessions, open to those that want to conform to the same parameters, they just have different parameters.

An "open jam" doesn't have to be limited to being  that it includes anyone that wants to make noise anyway they want, nor have to include anyone who define the music style anyway they want. It's a good idea to be sensitive to the parameters the others have, ignore labels, just listen to what they play and say.

paulinefiddle - Posted - 02/13/2013:  15:43:51

quote:

---

[...]

One BIG aspect just has to do with volume:  Fiddles can be LOUD, especially when playing two strings at once, and human voices, mandolins, and flatpicked guitars are often not very loud.  A loud fiddler can totally drown them out.  It's especially important to do whatever you have to do to play your softest during vocals, or during a flatpicker or mandolin player's break.  And this is doubly true when the total number of jammers is WAY bigger than you'd have in a typical bluegrass band.  If you've got 10 people in a bluegrass jam, and only one person is playing the lead or singing the verse, even the backup needs to be softer than if there are only 5 or 6 jammers. 

---

Conversely, if you're playing the only bowed instrument in the group, you've got to belt out the melody good and strong.  I started playing viola, rather than violin, at jams so that I could be heard over all those *** guitars and banjos.  Now my viola is my #1 instrument for jams because it is so good at bringing together so many instruments and voices at so many different pitches.  

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 02/13/2013:  15:53:06

May I never--ever never ever never never--again be at a "bluegrass" jam and hear an old, croaky, plangent voice singing:

"Ten years ago on a cold dark night...

Nobody know a woe woe woes...

Nobody see a hee hee hees...

Nobody know a woe woe woes...a buuuuuttttt meeeee a heee heeee...."

May God keep me and protect me.

Humbled

cornfed - Posted - 02/13/2013:  16:11:26

That's exactly why I don't attend BG Jams. Life's too short to put up with that stuff. If I am making a good faith effort to bridge the gap ( which isn't all that wide), then I'm entitled to a little consideration, not a disagreeable comment. I know how BG works. I know what key I'm playing in. I play a good number of BG/OT crossover tunes. I am a fairly competent fiddler, who is genuinely interested in how others play. I enjoy giving others the opportunity to shine by taking a solo break. I am not interested in dominance games. Yet my personal experience is identical to your protagonist fiddler.

My experience of BG jams is rudeness, and  it being made plain that I am not welcome. That's in the midwest and the southwest. It's OK with me, because I never have had any trouble finding  musicians to play with. In our "OT" jams we make every effort to be welcoming and accommodating to anyone who joins our circle. That's just common courtesy. WE encourage and support beginners. We have flutes and tinwhistles, jugs, jawharps  a bodhran.even a didgreredoo once. Good luck with that in a BG jam. It's interesting and fun. Most of those folks show up occasionally. (Many) BG players are too inflexible, and seem to be unable or unwilling to figure out what's going on in the group dynamic. They rarely return. I'm sorry that they find our music so distasteful, but it really doesn't diminish my pleasure very much.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  19:07:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by cornfed

Yet my personal experience is identical to your protagonist fiddler.

---

Not surprising. Your post shows a similar lack of respect.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 02/13/2013 19:08:28

mswlogo - Posted - 02/13/2013:  19:22:05

Hmmm, I was all psyched for Joe Val Bluegrass festival this weekend, now I'm not sure I wanna go :(

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/13/2013:  19:39:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by paulinefiddle

quote:

---

[...]

One BIG aspect just has to do with volume:  Fiddles can be LOUD, especially when playing two strings at once, and human voices, mandolins, and flatpicked guitars are often not very loud.  A loud fiddler can totally drown them out.  It's especially important to do whatever you have to do to play your softest during vocals, or during a flatpicker or mandolin player's break.  And this is doubly true when the total number of jammers is WAY bigger than you'd have in a typical bluegrass band.  If you've got 10 people in a bluegrass jam, and only one person is playing the lead or singing the verse, even the backup needs to be softer than if there are only 5 or 6 jammers. 

---

Conversely, if you're playing the only bowed instrument in the group, you've got to belt out the melody good and strong.  I started playing viola, rather than violin, at jams so that I could be heard over all those *** guitars and banjos.  Now my viola is my #1 instrument for jams because it is so good at bringing together so many instruments and voices at so many different pitches.  

---

Yeah, that's true- WHEN it's time for the break!  I can see how a 5 string fiddle would be useful... for one thing, I've long noticed that when I try to do backup chords (actually double stops) on the G and D stringss, it's right at a pitch where it seems to cover up or fight a flatpick guitar playing with no capo or with the capo on the 2nd fret.  Having that C string would give you some lower notes to do backup with.

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 02/13/2013:  20:03:57

A jam can not be all things to all players.  It just can't.  If it tries, nobody is happy.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/13/2013:  20:11:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by cornfed

That's exactly why I don't attend BG Jams. Life's too short to put up with that stuff. If I am making a good faith effort to bridge the gap ( which isn't all that wide), then I'm entitled to a little consideration, not a disagreeable comment. I know how BG works. I know what key I'm playing in. I play a good number of BG/OT crossover tunes. I am a fairly competent fiddler, who is genuinely interested in how others play. I enjoy giving others the opportunity to shine by taking a solo break. I am not interested in dominance games. Yet my personal experience is identical to your protagonist fiddler.

My experience of BG jams is rudeness, and  it being made plain that I am not welcome. That's in the midwest and the southwest. It's OK with me, because I never have had any trouble finding  musicians to play with. In our "OT" jams we make every effort to be welcoming and accommodating to anyone who joins our circle. That's just common courtesy. WE encourage and support beginners. We have flutes and tinwhistles, jugs, jawharps  a bodhran.even a didgreredoo once. Good luck with that in a BG jam. It's interesting and fun. Most of those folks show up occasionally. (Many) BG players are too inflexible, and seem to be unable or unwilling to figure out what's going on in the group dynamic. They rarely return. I'm sorry that they find our music so distasteful, but it really doesn't diminish my pleasure very much.

 

---

Well, I can kind of see where you're coming from.  One time I showed up at a bluegrass jam with a nylon string guitar because that's all I had at the time, and I kind of got bad vibed about it.  Someone brought an instrument with an amp (I forget what it was... possibly a nylon string guitar with a small amp or an electric bass) and one of the bluegrassers got kind of hissy about it.

On the other hand, I sat in one bluegrass jam with a lady playing a silver (modern orchestral) flute to my right, and an earplug in my left to protect it from my loud fiddle.  That flutist was loud enough to completely drown out the sounds of the rest of the jam, making it very hard to play in time with them. She also was totally missing the groove herself, so the result did not seem musical at all.  I had a miserable time, and if that flutist were to show up consistently, and continue to play the same way, it might make me not want to go back.

SOME of the inflexibility is because there is a traditional way to make the bluegrass instrumentation work, but add a non-conventional instrument, and there is no traditional body of knowledge on how to make it work.

Playing unison melody in an inherently less delicate procedure.... it's all suppose to blend anyway, so you can be playing loud or soft, it doesn't matter in most cases (barring a soloist quality violin played loudly, a plectrum banjo played loudly, or an electric whatever through a Marshall stack!)  But when you are playing backup, your volume level TOTALLY matters. 

However, in spite of the unison melody thing going on, Irish Trad "sessions" (they don't "jam") do have a thing where playing tightly in unison is super important, and if a musician is not capable of the speed to keep up, or phrasing the same way, they can be just as unfriendly as any bluegrassers if not more so.  One of the things to keep in mind is that it's usually not like the whole jam or session is rude.... usually you are dealing with self appointed "Dauntless Defenders of Quality" aka "police".

One additional problem with Bluegrass jams is that traditionally it was played by professional musicians playing through a single mic, and it was choreographed so the person taking the break got closest to the mic.  This served to balance the acoustic volume advantage of certain loud instruments like banjos.  But in a Bluegrass jam, you seldom have a mic, and this makes the natural acoustic volume of the instrument AND the player's ability to control it if necessary into crucial factors.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  20:33:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

Hmmm, I was all psyched for Joe Val Bluegrass festival this weekend, now I'm not sure I wanna go :(

 

---

Don't let others stories scare you. Go with respect. I think it helps not get too focused on some label definition (at least be open to change your preexisting). There is generally a pretty diverse jams (no they are not all the same). Listen and observe without labeling. Find one that  is a good fit. If someone tells something you are doing doesn't quite fit, take it to heart (if you want to play with them), they know what they want. If not, or it is beyond your grasp, respect their jam and find another jam. Or start one (and you get to define it) Have fun.

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 02/13/2013:  21:44:05

I hate some of yall had some bad experiences at Bluegrass gatherings. Ive never been to a strictly OT festival. But keep in mind their's always ten-percent that will try to ruin what ever it is your trying to have.

irfiddler - Posted - 02/13/2013:  22:39:43

WHAT A GREAT SUBJECT! Let's not tippy toe around - let it all hang out!!



I am laughing because I relate to so many of the comments above. Onetime a whole group actually picked up their instruments and walked off from me - only to start up again under the next tree. Later I realized they were actually a band practicing.  I took insults, slights, criticisms, and went home like a whipped dog more than once. But...I kept coming back and paid my dues for many years before I was comfortable as a bluegrass fiddler. But .... I would do it all over again because now I play in both a bluegrass band and an oldtime band and they are the joys of my life.



I do think you get along better in bluegrass circles if you check your ego at the door and remember that it's not all about you, the fiddler, anymore. Unlike oldtime fiddling - which is largely instrumental - bluegrass is mostly about the vocalizing - and tight vocal harmonies are prized . A good bluegrass fiddler learns when and where to play a lick or long note that will enhance the vocalist(s). and when to stay out of the way. Also not to play over everyone. Above all - to LISTEN!! .



If I don't know anyone in a jam - and it's in new territory - I tread very warily. When my first turn came I'd probably play a break from an instrumental I had practiced a lot that I was sure they knew. Maybe Salt Creek - or Big Mon - Clinch Mtn Backstep - Ragtime Annie .It's really helpful to be prepared and know the chords to the tune you pick. Hopefully it would only have 3 or 4 chords and you would know what they are. Many guitarists have wonderful voices - but they are not good instrumentalist. They really appreciate a fiddler who knows the chords. There's a lot of truth in the old saying - 3 chords and a capo - that's all you need to be a bluegrass guitarist. Well - it is - to start.



When it is your turn - jump in and be aggressive. That's your moment in the sun. Give the others their moment in the sun. That's bluegrass etiquette 101.

Just my 2c

 

Edited by - irfiddler on 02/13/2013 22:50:15

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/14/2013:  01:14:36

Good points ifiddler - there do seem to be BG jams where a fiddler is not a great fit; they are very song oriented and just don't really like doing fiddle tunes (they all sound the same?) - and some have become weary of fiddlers; because they get bored spending 90% of the time doing nothing (maybe that little percussive chop), biting at the bit for their turn; for lead and in selecting; sometimes want to noodle. And in selecting they always seem to choose fast complex fiddle tunes.  They are more weary of the OT fiddler, who wants to keep trying to play a melody in back of the singer or other lead; or noodle; and then their break comes and they just play the straight melody 

These folks really love songs (and harmony parts), and don't quite get the appeal to fiddle tunes. Banjos rule, along with guitar and mandos, who can do actual backup, chords and fills, not just waiting for their turn at a lead.

But that's just one kind, not every BG jam. Each jam defines these things for themselves. Usually at a festival it isn't difficult to find more tune oriented jams, some might swap leads, others might be more like the stereotypical OT - multiple simultaneous melody instruments. It isn't usually to find different jams that diverge from any pure BG, or OT sound; including just more general fiddling tunes, or even just folks songs. It's not a one size fit's all.

Susan H - Posted - 02/14/2013:  06:19:31

When I lived out west, I would go to a slow jam once a week. Had a great turn out most of the time, even when it snowed! But, this one couple started showing up and started dominating the jam with their songs and their singing. After a couple of visits they were asked not to come back. They had gotten completely away from what the slow jam was all about. (Every one participates, and if you don't like a song, you don't have to play. If you are rude about it, we don't need you there.) We played old time, BG, country, gospel just to name a few. Couldn't wrap my head around rock and roll though that this couple wanted to do, what made it worse was they couldn't sing either... And other jams I've been to, it was all BG or OT, and the person who ran it made sure of that, nothing else would do. Now, I wish I had a jam to go to. Nothing around here in the DFW area that I know about.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 02/14/2013:  06:46:15

Generally BG folks will expect you to know the standard songs and tunes.  Often you'll hear, "Okay, let's play 'I Wish I Knew'...in B...no make it Bb," and if you just practiced the tune in B, too bad, for the singer or person whose turn it is to lead gets to make the call.  If you can add to the harmony, you're going to make some friends, too, for bluegrass is mainly about the vocals.  Moreover, many do not like telling you the chords to standard songs; you'll get "Okay, 'Little Outhouse on the Hill in G,'" but they'll expect you to know the chordal pattern from there.

Yet here's what you do.  You walk about at the festival and listen to various groups.  If the group on the hill features a fiddler who plays almost as well as Kenny Baker--and you sound more like a bad Curly (from the Three Stooges)--then chances are it's best to stay away from that jam.  If the group by the lake is playing slow, mournful songs ("Nobody know a woe woe woes; nobody see a hee hee hees; nobody know a woe woe woes but meeeeeee), then don't try to join them to play a rousing "Red Haired Boy."  And so on.  Join the group in which you think you'll fit.       

Fiddler - Posted - 02/14/2013:  06:46:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by Susan H



 Now, I wish I had a jam to go to. Nothing around here in the DFW area that I know about.

---

Susan, there is a recurring OT jam in DALLAS!!! Yes, DALLAS!! It is at the Dallas Heritage Village (used to be Old City Park) every 1st and 3rd Sat from 2-4:30 pm (The Village closes at 5)  It is strictly OT. We meet in Browder Hall (used to be the Print Shop). The number has varied from 7 or 8 to well over 20 or 25. The skill level also varies from novices to highly experienced.

DHV is near downtown - I-30 and Harwood. dallasheritagevillage.org/

Mojohand40 - Posted - 02/14/2013:  06:49:10

I've really never had any of these problems at BG jams I've attended. But to be fair, mostly I play mandolin and sometimes guitar at jams. I attended a small jam last Monday where I brought both my fiddle and mandolin, but mostly played mandolin as there was only one other mando guy and he was playing guitar most of the night (and he was a great singer! BTW).

But I did accompany a few songs on fiddle, played a little backup and took a break or two. Then  the banjo player wanted to play a few fiddle tunes, so I did Red Wing and we jammed on that a little, then Old Joe Clark.  (Banjo guys like Red Wing...it's in G).  Then I just went back to mandolin. I had a good time!

Like was said before, there is a jamming etiquette at BG jams, and it's not hard to learn. And yeah, it's about the song. Play to make the song sound good. A person who can play a little backup, can sing and knows the words to BG standards will always be more popular and welcome then the fellow who is the hottest picker or fiddler. That's a fact. 

Now, I HAVE seen a few Old Time type fiddlers (and  a few clawhammer banjo players, and a few harmonica players) have a hard time at BG jams. But really, it's was there OWN fault. They tried to kick off tunes that were NOT typical BG tunes and they didn't have the ability to even explain the Chord structure. When it came to SONGS (as opposed to tunes) they were usually at a loss, as they weren't familiar with even the commonest songs.

Anyway, here's Four tips to help you go to BG jams:

1) DO Listen to some BG. Really. Know the material. If you aren't much of a fan, then why are you at a BG jam? Go see live BG whenever you can. It's great to see a good band live.

2) DO Learn a few songs and be willing to sing them. Know the words, know the chords and do it. Showing up to a jam with out a song to sing is like showing up to a pot luck supper with just your appetite. Doesn't matter if you can't sing well, folks appreciate the effort and usually like others to take a turn leading a song.

3) DO Learn backup. just a little. Learn to chop a double stop chord, learn to smoothly drone a chord note (root or third and fifth) over the proper chord. BUT DON'T over play the backup. A little here and there is better almost always.

4) DON'T play a tune that isn't part of the genre. (Unless you really, really know the folks you are playing with and KNOW that they don't mind). For instance, one of my fiddle passions is Irish Trad. I mostly play Irish whenever I practice fiddle these days, and have really started focusing on that...BUT....I've NEVER THOUGHT about playing an Irish tune at a BG jam gathering EVEN with folks I know well. I'll save it for an Irish Session. PERIOD.   Same goes with old time tunes.. Old Time is Beautiful!  I love the sound of a claw hammer banjo and fiddle....BUT not at a bluegrass jam. Old Time and BG are not the same. You can be the greatest Old Time Fiddler and know 100 tunes, but if you don't know a FEW BG SONGS....then you won't fit in.

Just my two and a half cents.

DougD - Posted - 02/14/2013:  07:05:37

mswlogo - Don't let this discussion keep you from going to the Joe Val festival. Even if you don't play much you can listen, look around, and meet people. Looks like there will be some good workshops too. Of course this assumes that you like Bluegrass to begin with.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 02/14/2013:  07:27:13

Well ..... I've been told at BG fiddle workshops some rules of thumb about BG fiddling.....1. Don't play the melody while the singer is singing the melody. Play something melodic and stay off the singers note. 2. Chop only during the mandolin players break.3. Stay off the E string as much as possible. 4. Don't play to much, just enough to support the song. 5. Use lots of long bows behing the singer . 6.Always play a few pickup notes at the beginning of your break or kickoff of the song. 7. Play chordally not melodically behind the other breaks with long bows and doublestops. 8. Practice your closed position scales because there is not a capo for a fiddle. 9. Don't be afraid to sit one out.
There will always be problems with any gathering of people. Some want to play 1949 some want 1999. I just like to play so I try to fit in with whatever is going on. If I don't fit in I move on. Sans Souchi ... R/

vibratingstring - Posted - 02/14/2013:  08:53:34

regarding >>>>>>> Yes, sometimes "open" jams are in reality closed band sessions where they are working out arrangements, etc.

Well, I was camped next to 4 young women at Clifftop in 2003.  When the four of them were hanging out playing one afternoon, I went over with my banjo and played along best I could.    They never said anything to me except some maybe Hi with some head nods.   After a few tunes, I said, "thanks" and left.

The next day they were the featured group at Clifftop playing those tunes onstage........it was Uncle Earl.      Seven years later I was in a recording studio in NYC with one of them through a completely different pathway.....so I didn't blow it completely.

Larry

Edited by - vibratingstring on 02/14/2013 08:56:50

irfiddler - Posted - 02/14/2013:  14:36:05

quote:

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Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

Well ..... I've been told at BG fiddle workshops some rules of thumb about BG fiddling.....1. Don't play the melody while the singer is singing the melody. Play something melodic and stay off the singers note. 2. Chop only during the mandolin players break.3. Stay off the E string as much as possible. 4. Don't play to much, just enough to support the song. 5. Use lots of long bows behing the singer . 6.Always play a few pickup notes at the beginning of your break or kickoff of the song. 7. Play chordally not melodically behind the other breaks with long bows and doublestops. 8. Practice your closed position scales because there is not a capo for a fiddle. 9. Don't be afraid to sit one out.

There will always be problems with any gathering of people. Some want to play 1949 some want 1999. I just like to play so I try to fit in with whatever is going on. If I don't fit in I move on. Sans Souchi ... R/

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 We must have gone to the same workshops, Usuallypickin:)).

One thing I hadn't heard  -   "Stay off the E string."    Would that advice be  for when people are actually singing or playing their instrumental breaks - to keep out of their way and not muddy up their solos and  harmonies etc?

Lately I've been working on some E string fills when I'm backing up a singer.  Just little licks to play in  the pauses at the end of lines here and there on songs where a high fiddle lick sounds  more "fiddly" than the darker tones.   Just wonderin'....

blgrssr - Posted - 02/16/2013:  05:37:37

this was very educational for me. It was very interesting to hear diff perspectives. I did not know there were different jam ettiquetes , that is completely misspelled isnt it, at folk and old time circles. I did not know to stay off the e string. I originally posted this because ive seen fiddlers time and time again walk away dissappointed from a jam. a jam I go to, I can think of 5 fiddlers who went one time never to return. sad.

hardykefes - Posted - 02/16/2013:  06:31:16

The best advice I can give: 

First off, if there are If there are multiple groups jamming, observe and find out where you think you fit in with your skills.

Often beginners or intermediate players hear a great group and want to play with them, ignoring that a good group has high expectations. I wouldn't want to play with a guitar player who doesn't keep timing. So, don't pick a group that is over your head and you can't keep up with.

If you want to go pee with the big dogs you must be able to lift your leg.

2) If you found a group that suits you, stay behind and carefully play some licks in the background. Don't play too loud. You want to be heard and let the group decide whether they will accept you or not. Advanced groups won't tolerate if you continuously play and don't listen. It is important that you listen what the others play and just fill in the gaps. If the group accepts you they will indicate this by giving you a lead.  Just because you played a lead is no guarantee yet to keep playing with this group. Be modest and wait for more invitation. If you don't get it you still stay behind the players.

This works every time for me. I like to be encouraged to play more. I dislike to be told to step down. I think it's common sense.

Remember, even if you think you are not loud, the fiddle is always being heard. Often way more then you hear yourself. You need to understand the power of a fiddle.

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 02/16/2013:  08:36:31

If I'm anything at a BG jam I would tend to be sheepish.  My nerves would probably cause me to fumble, even if I felt I had some skills in that area.  There is a BG jam more than an hour away that is very helpful.  If I wanted to break into the BG jam world with my fiddle, it would be there.  Too bad it is so far away.  When I have been there, it was when I was still on BG banjo.  It is sort of an instructional jam.  It is run by a group of folks that teach at a "music co-op".  One of the teachers runs the jam and they take $5 donations.  As people chose tunes, he puts the chord progression on the blackboard and offers hints.  The jam is mixed with beginners and regular old hats.  People are very understanding there and play most tunes at a slower pace.

If I started taking playing BG more seriously, I would go there with both mando and fiddle in hand.  I would start out on mando chords until I got comfortable and then maybe pick up the fiddle for tunes and chords I was familiar with.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/16/2013:  10:14:31

Excellent post, Hardy!

A key point you make is playing softly in the background.

That's easy to say, and not hard to do if you have an extensive violin background- after all, you have to learn what those

Eye-talian words MEAN, and then DO what they say- and "piano" isn't just a Steinway, it means "softly", and "piannissimo" means MOST softly.

BUT for someone that's played in a unison oriented genre like Old Time (especially since the fiddle is dominant in Old Time) controlling volume is a new concept.

Ironically, it was an electric guitarist who helped me get a handle on controlling volume!

I was in a music store trying out electric guitars, and a young blues guitarist was also trying out guitars.... he showed me a trick where he put his little pinky finger upside of the volume control which is usually nearest the bridge.... and he used the pinky to raise and lower the volume while he was playing the note, using the volume control like a volume pedal... and the purpose of all this was to make the electric guitar SOUND LIKE A VIOLIN, with the long notes either swelling or fading- and it did sound surprisingly violin-like.  That totally impressed on me how intrinsic dynamics are to violin playing.  And ever since then, when I'm playing a waltz or a slow air, I use those fades and swells on my long bows, since those are the most violin-like parts of the fiddling repertoire.

Well, once you learn to FADE.... the next step in control is KEEPING the low volume level you faded to.

The challenge is that it's hard to play softly without your tone deteriorating and even squeaking... but with some work, it's possible.

And once you GET that, you can use a louder fiddle that can shine on the breaks, but still be able to drop the volume for background playing.

blgrssr, I would not at all be surprised if the 5 fiddlers who walked away from that one jam all had problems controlling their volume.

paulinefiddle - Posted - 02/16/2013:  10:41:24

I know that most of my beginning students have difficulty learning to play softly.  Here is what I tell them.  (1)  Use less bow pressure.  (2)  Use short bowstrokes.  (3)  Play near the tip.  Try these things.  They really work.

irfiddler - Posted - 02/16/2013:  23:30:40

I haven't seen this spelt out in any of the posts above - so here goes just in case ther are some who don't know this already. This is from a class I gave on the differences between Traditional Bluegrass and American oldtime music. The word "Traditional" is important. because you'll find many variations and hybrids. Even so - many of the same rules apply. My understanding is this:

Traditional Bluegrass started with Bill Monroe (Big Mon) and his Bluegrass Boys in the 30's, while American Old time music has evolved over centuries in this country - a mixture of the music of many different cultures....Irish, Scottish, African and so on.

The instruments usually found. In today's bluegrass bands are the guitar, mandolin, 5 string banjo with resonator, standup bass, fiddle and sometimes dobro. Possibly a harmonica. Vocals - especially tight 3 and 4 part harmonies - are very important. Usually there will be one of each instrument in a bluegrass band though occasionally you will see 2 fiddles. Bill himself played mandolin and composed many bluegrass instrumentals and songs that are widely played to this day. He enjoyed having 2 fiddles in his band but sometimes could not afford them - or so I have read in stories about him and his bands. Bluegrass is performance music - even when we jam bluegrass there is usually a throng of spectators. The instruments and voices take "breaks" and play solos that are often "flashy".

In old time music the main instruments are clawhammer - or frailing banjo - and fiddles, Other instruments are guitar, mandolin, bones, spoons, dulcimers, autoharps, maybe a harmonica. and so on. There is sometimes singing - often there is not. Sometimes there is dancing. Flat foot, contra dancing and clogging are often accompanied by an old time stringband. Usually the instruments all play together and play the same tune many times -or they might play a medley of tunes in the same key. The banjos have to be retuned a lot, so we try to play a bunch of tunes in the same key Old time music can be performed by a band. More often though, we jam in a circle for our own enjoyment.

There are many classes and write ups on jam etiquette - mostly bluegrass etiquette. Old time musicians seem to be much more forgiving since they all play together anyway - I suppose there's less chance of treading on each other's toes that way. That might be why old time musicians undergo culture shock when they venture into Bluegrass country.

FWIW, this is my take on it to date from the countless workshops and music camps I've gone to over many years. But there's always something new to learn - it's a black hole! Barb

Reilly-Byrne - Posted - 02/17/2013:  05:25:04

Bluegrass and OT fiddle to me are so different. I have not really played BG in over 10 years (when I stopped playing banjo). The best contest fiddler in the state got together with some of the best BG pickers in the state and could not play with them. Now, he has the talent to play BG if he put in the time and effort to learn it, but he never did.



Speaking of BG manners, I know two brothers that are both real good fiddlers. One delights in coming into a BG jam and playing fiddle tunes no one has ever heard before, even though he can play plenty of good tunes everyone knows. The other brother can play anything OT or BG anyone wants to play, but he tends to want to play one fiddle tune after another. Most of the BG players run away from the first brother, and play with the second brother until he gets on his fiddle tune rampage.

mad baloney - Posted - 02/17/2013:  08:45:08

Good info here on the BG scene and etiquette that goes along with it , FWIW - each style has it's own paradigm which keeps them pure. Some get sour grapes about it, but it's what keeps it all from turning into 'anything-goes' folk mush, which generally usually steamrolls over all the little details that give all the little genres their own charm.

I call it the 'chocolate pizza theory'; chocolate is good and pizza is good - but they are gross when they're mixed together.

DeamhanFola - Posted - 02/17/2013:  14:49:42

quote:

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Originally posted by mad baloney

Good info here on the BG scene and etiquette that goes along with it , FWIW - each style has it's own paradigm which keeps them pure. Some get sour grapes about it, but it's what keeps it all from turning into 'anything-goes' folk mush, which generally usually steamrolls over all the little details that give all the little genres their own charm.

I call it the 'chocolate pizza theory'; chocolate is good and pizza is good - but they are gross when they're mixed together.

---

+1 to all of this.

Gotta say, I've internalized a lot of the Irish seisiún ettiquette, to the point where I'd find it very difficult to simply plow into any established jam that wasn't specifically advertised as open--and even then I'd likely visit once or twice before doing so. It's not a bad thing to see what's on the 'hit parade' before shouldering one's way in. In Ireland in some closed/semi-closed seisiúns there's even a specified 'seating chart' in some places (who's closest to the fire, etc). Not necessarily good or bad, just something to know.

wheelhoss - Posted - 02/18/2013:  10:53:00

I don't go to a football game expecting rugby. When in Rome, do as the Romans, or stay out of Rome. I've been to jams all over the country and they are all different. Most of them are attended by poorly talented players who are mostly in tune but can't keep time. Sometimes I'm asked to play a fiddle tune and usually turn that around by asking what tune do they want. I know hundreds of fiddle tunes but if I'm not familiar with the specific jam I stick with basics. What I hate is the person who says "I haven't played in four months". Stay home and practice!!

I can figure out the quality of a jam in two minutes. Sometimes I leave, sometimes I stay. It used to be that the inner circle were the talented players and the outer circle were the beginners. I don't see that so much anymore. I once had a banjo doing the constant banjo tuning process in the circle while the jam was ongoing. Coulda choked him.

Susan, there are several bluegrass jams in the DFW area. Beginners are always welcome. Starting in April come on down to the square in Garland and jump in. Several others exist.

blgrssr - Posted - 02/18/2013:  12:10:32

in the beginning, there were jams I wasnt really welcomed at. so I went and listened, brought pen and paper and wrote down the songs THEY played, and the key. dont forget the key! I then went home and wrote solos to those songs in that key and returned. suddenly, I was much more welcomed.
I love going up to a banjo player and saying"so do you know shukin the corn in g?" or earls breakdown, or dear old dixie, or clinch mountain backstep. their eyes open wide, as if to say you are the only fiddler I ever met who wants to play that tune!

Edited by - blgrssr on 02/18/2013 12:14:48

Peghead - Posted - 02/18/2013:  14:47:41

quote:

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Originally posted by blgrssr



in the beginning, there were jams I wasnt really welcomed at. so I went and listened, brought pen and paper and wrote down the songs THEY played, and the key. dont forget the key! I then went home and wrote solos to those songs in that key and returned. suddenly, I was much more welcomed.

I love going up to a banjo player and saying"so do you know shukin the corn in g?" or earls breakdown, or dear old dixie, or clinch mountain backstep. their eyes open wide, as if to say you are the only fiddler I ever met who wants to play that tune!

---

 Yes, ensemble playing and BG in particular is very much a team sport. Each instrument however, has its own  huge sub-culture of tunes, styles, methods, icons, and roles in the band. The fiddle can be consuming while you are learning, but over time, the more you know about the other instruments and their world and make the effort to cross over, the more appreciated and welcome you'll be. Learn something and be knowledgable about the other instruments, tunes and their culture.

You don't need to look far for breaks to vocal tunes just learn the the exact melody line and the words for starters! The words and phrasing will lead you in a straight line right to the bowing. Mandolin tunes are pretty clear to fiddle players. Scruggs tunes can be a challenge to fiddlers who are used to tunes with a linear melody based on 8th notes. Don't be fooled by all those those rolls, there is a melody of quarter and half notes sandwiched in there if you listen differently, but it's like where's Waldo. Don't cave in and just play a bunch of improvised mumbo jumbo that ain't no part of nothin. Find and work on those melody notes and make it fiddle-istic.  Like wise with the dobro. Good bass playing shares a lot w good BG fiddle, when to surface and when to be supportive. Be inquisitive, make friends.

Edited by - Peghead on 02/18/2013 14:51:40